Military bullets

[Ploddy Paul]

Bit off piste but I think there are a number of exmilitary on here. Watching Ian on Forgotten Weapons on YouTube about the French police unit GIGN and the Bren2 they use, he mentioned they use expanding bullets. I had always thought that expanding ammo for use on humans was banned after the so called Dum Dum bullets were banned in the late 1800s? Have I got this wrong?

 

[tackb]

dum dums i believe are banned by the geneva suggestions (or hague conventions?) for military use in war but police do not have to adhere to the geneva suggestions so can use expanding

thats off the top of my head but i'm sure google will give you the exact description

 

[User00056]

The Geneva Convention outlawed expanding bullets for military use in the 1950's, but I don't believe the police are bound by that? But either way, the 7.62 x 39 is classed as a 'penetrative' round, rather than expanding, as it has a steel core. Perhaps a slip of the tongue?

 

[SpikeD]

This opens up a commonly misunderstood topic, so here's a brief history: the "Dum Dum" (named after the factory in India where the pattern of bullet was first made) is interesting enough in itself, the first incarnation of the .303" jacketed round nose propelled by black powder was completely ineffective, failing to stop / disable enemy combatants so a better solution was sought, unofficial modifications filed the noses of the bullet to expose the lead but the military tried a hollow point approach resulting in the Mk IV and V, these proved very effective but the European powers didn't like the idea of the British having a superior arm so performed a series of tests showing how deadly hollow points were but in reality they were using 7.92 Mauser with smokeless ammunition at velocities exceeding 2400fps which is a bit of a magic number because that's when you see "explosive" wounding where energy is transferred to tissue faster than it can expand so you get large permanent cavitation. This was not understood at the time but under the Hauge convention (not Geneva) "Bullets that are designed to produce excessive wounding" were banned for military use. This doesn't apply to Police forces who regularly use expanding ammunition to reduce the risk of over penetration or "shoot through" "Dum Dum became a bit of a moniker that's stuck over the years for any expanding ammunition

 

[tackb]

The Geneva Convention outlawed expanding bullets for military use in the 1950's, but I don't believe the police are bound by that? But either way, the 7.62 x 39 is classed as a 'penetrative' round, rather than expanding, as it has a steel core. Perhaps a slip of the tongue?

it was the 1899 hague convention , just looked it up

 

[User00056]

it was the 1899 hague convention , just looked it up

Ah, thanks. I stand corrected

 

[Donkey Basher]

IIRC it wasn’t just the expansion that was an issue, was it not the 7.62x39 ‘penetrative round’ that it was discovered actually had a core designed to make it tumble on impact & hence produce an excessive wound channel??

 

[tackb]

IIRC it wasn’t just the expansion that was an issue, was it not the 7.62x39 ‘penetrative round’ that it was discovered actually had a core designed to make it tumble on impact & hence produce an excessive wound channel??

nah , it was the 303 round originally that us brits used in india that caused the hague convention to ban them (basically the other european nations didn't like that we had an advantage in stopping power)

i think the 303 MK7 ball had cardboard in the nose to improve expansion but it was under the jacket and was there to improve 'accuracy'

the 5.56 has a steel core that increases terminal effect without falling foul of the rules of war afaik ?

 

[NP435]

nah , it was the 303 round originally that us brits used in india that caused the hague convention to ban them (basically the other european nations didn't like that we had an advantage in stopping power)

i think the 303 MK7 ball had cardboard in the nose to improve expansion but it was under the jacket and was there to improve 'accuracy'

the 5.56 has a steel core that increases terminal effect without falling foul of the rules of war afaik ?

If you speak of M855 5.56 that core was intended to provide penetration on a NATO helmet at 800 yards thus ensuring any com bloc helmet would be swiss cheesed. However, the fast twist rate required to stabilize M856 tracer turned these projectiles into green tipped drill bits. I have seen in person lots of Iraqi soldiers shot through
the lungs live and eating the day after being shot, not exactly a great terminal effect. Of course, those men were evacuated from the battlefield and had surgery had they been left in place they would have died at some point just much later.

 

[User00056]

IIRC it wasn’t just the expansion that was an issue, was it not the 7.62x39 ‘penetrative round’ that it was discovered actually had a core designed to make it tumble on impact & hence produce an excessive wound channel??

Think that was the 7.62 x 54 Dragunov? It had a steel core with a lead 'knocker' in the base designed to make it tumble on impact. Nasty

 

[Donkey Basher]

Think that was the 7.62 x 54 Dragunov? It had a steel core with a lead 'knocker' in the base designed to make it tumble on impact. Nasty

That’s the jobby

 

[viking90]

IIRC it wasn’t just the expansion that was an issue, was it not the 7.62x39 ‘penetrative round’ that it was discovered actually had a core designed to make it tumble on impact & hence produce an excessive wound channel??

That was 5.45x39 (7n6). Ironically the steel core found in comblock ammo isnt designed to increase penetration, its literally just a cheap filler so less lead is used. The jackets are also bimetal instead of copper to keep the cost down. Like the steel cases they are often simply copper plated for corrosion resistance. This is why dimensionally 7n1 sniper ammo used in 7.62x54r is very close to 170gr lead cored bullets but only weighs 151grains

 

[tackb]

If you speak of M855 5.56 that core was intended to provide penetration on a NATO helmet at 800 yards thus ensuring any com bloc helmet would be swiss cheesed. However, the fast twist rate required to stabilize M856 tracer turned these projectiles into green tipped drill bits. I have seen in person lots of Iraqi soldiers shot through
the lungs live and eating the day after being shot, not exactly a great terminal effect. Of course, those men were evacuated from the battlefield and had surgery had they been left in place they would have died at some point just much later.

i stand corrected

i was under the impression that the SS109 ball ammo with the steel penetrator core separated and tumbled causing more serious injuries

no practical experience though and nor do i want any either giving or receiving!

 

[Sandy25]

Bit off piste but I think there are a number of exmilitary on here. Watching Ian on Forgotten Weapons on YouTube about the French police unit GIGN and the Bren2 they use, he mentioned they use expanding bullets. I had always thought that expanding ammo for use on humans was banned after the so called Dum Dum bullets were banned in the late 1800s? Have I got this wrong?

Anti terror ops still use expanding/fragmenting ammo for greater knock down power, stops anyone running on….

 

[Ploddy Paul]

Some interesting replies, thanks all. I hadn’t realised the police are not subject to the same rules as the military. Paul

 

[ashray]

hpbt also expand

 

[MarinePMI]

IIRC it wasn’t just the expansion that was an issue, was it not the 7.62x39 ‘penetrative round’ that it was discovered actually had a core designed to make it tumble on impact & hence produce an excessive wound channel??

Meh. The Mk 262 round was designed for the same purpose. It either had a high enough velocity to break into two pieces upon entry, or if it was slow enough (out of a short barreled M-4 for example) that it would yaw and tumble, possibly breaking in two as well.

The standard 62gr "green tip" 5.56 ammo also has a steel rod in the nose for exactly that; penetration. The problem with it is that it tended to pencil through a person, requiring multiple hits (or shooting for the pelvic girdle) to bring someone down quickly. It's why we were trained to aim for the pelvic girdle if we thought a tango was wearing body armor; get them down quickly, and follow up with a killing shot if they didn't bleed out fast enough and remained a threat.

 

[MarinePMI]

That was 5.45x39 (7n6). Ironically the steel core found in comblock ammo isnt designed to increase penetration, its literally just a cheap filler so less lead is used. The jackets are also bimetal instead of copper to keep the cost down. Like the steel cases they are often simply copper plated for corrosion resistance. This is why dimensionally 7n1 sniper ammo used in 7.62x54r is very close to 170gr lead cored bullets but only weighs 151grains

Largely done because Russia is a lead poor country (believe it or not).

 

[weblyish]

Some interesting replies, thanks all. I hadn’t realised the police are not subject to the same rules as the military. Paul

Ive had it explained

police shoot at criminals

Whereas military types shoot at other people just doing their job

 

[MarinePMI]

Ive had it explained

police shoot at criminals

Whereas military types shoot at other people just doing their job

That is a very good way of explaining it.

I'd also remind people that GWOT was conducted with an enitity that was not a signatory of the Hague or LOAC agreements. Hence why you saw various types of munitions used (SOST rounds for example) that would otherwise be very questionable in a formally declared war with a Nation State. Terrorists were somewhere between criminals and soldiers. Same goes for (the now declared) narco-terrorists.