223 or 6.5crmr

[Karhumies]

Iam doing better financially again and i have decided that i want to get a Tikka t3x tact A1. I have classic style rifles, I have Kalashnikov, I have a drilling, i have 2 shotguns, i have pretty mutch all i need at normal hunting ranges.

What i dont have and the dragon i keep chasing is something very customisable that will shoot a hare in the head at 300+ meters. I dont own a modern precision rifle.

That raises the question, its available in 223 260rem 308 and 6.5crmr. 260 is out for me based on twist rate and ammo availability.
308 is out because iam just not looking to ad another mid ranged 30 cal.

so 223 with a 1:8 twist or 6.5crmr with a 1:8 twist rate. Wich one to choose. Both will take any of the intended game legally: hare, roe deer, grouse, fox, racoon dog, rabbit. Recoil is a non issue in that metal chassis with a big dude behind it. what would be reasons to pick either one? normal ranges are 100-250 meter for me but i do ocassionally go out to over 300 and i have plans to push 500 in the future. Neither should lack power for its intended purpose but the less i have to compensate for drop and wind the better. I mostly load non toxic. In the future i may also want to do target shooting.

Wichever i get i would handload.

 

[andyk]

I’d have the 1:8 223 personally, 6.5 seems a touch excessive for those quarries.

The 6.5 will have an edge, as the BC of the bullets is better, but 73/75gr ELD bullets are still very good.

I like my 1:8 222 shooting 73gr ELD a lot.

 

[Karhumies]

I’d have the 1:8 223 personally, 6.5 seems a touch excessive for those quarries.

The 6.5 will have an edge, as the BC of the bullets is better, but 73/75gr ELD bullets are still very good.

I like my 1:8 222 shooting 73gr ELD a lot.

with my usual bullet choises iam looking at BCs of about .270-.340 for the 223 and .500-.600 for the CRMR. Iam a bit new to considering BC tho, mostly i have just done point, holdover, shoot, pray with my 6.5x55. decent results. But i want to try my hand at the long range thing.

 

[Lateral]

I have the CM with 24" barrel. It's a great rifle, and very accurate, but too heavy for me for hunting, unless I'd be shooting from a seat/stand, and I'm not stalking.

I hand load Hornady 143gn ELD-X, and have shot gongs out to 850m/920yds, with boring consistency.

 

[markyw]

Fast twist 223 with heavy bullets will take you out a good distance. I know guys shooting target at 600+ with very good accuracy using 77gr or 88gr bullets from a longer barrelled 223, so accuracy at 300 should be fine - especially from the Tikka.

Regards

Mark

 

[Karhumies]

I have the CM with 24" barrel. It's a great rifle, and very accurate, but too heavy for me for hunting, unless I'd be shooting from a seat/stand, and I'm not stalking.

I hand load Hornady 143gn ELD-X, and have shot gongs out to 850m/920yds, with boring consistency.

thata the idea, from a rest. The rifle in question is already a Behemoth. The cartridge wont make any difference in that. Its a metal chassis with AR style fore grip and a skeletonised metal folding stock, heavy barrel too. Its really designed as a target rifle. I already have a variety of classic rifles to pick from in the safe.

 

[Lateral]

with my usual bullet choises iam looking at BCs of about .270-.340 for the 223 and .500-.600 for the CRMR. Iam a bit new to considering BC tho, mostly i have just done point, holdover, shoot, pray with my 6.5x55. decent results. But i want to try my hand at the long range thing.

BC's are pretty irrelevant out to 300m, it becomes more relevant at distances beyond where you're likely to be consistently head shooting a hare, or rabbit....................

 

[Karhumies]

BC's are pretty irrelevant out to 300m, it becomes more relevant at distances beyond where you're likely to be consistently head shooting a hare, or rabbit....................

well thats the challenge. Been doing it pretty well with the 222rem out to 250-300m when its not too windy. But the slightest breeze and i miss. Ofcourse at that range the hare doesnt even react to a miss so i do get multiple chanses.

 

[andyk]

The reason I talked about the high BC 22s is that it’s (at least to my mind) what can make a fast twist 22CF more capable than a ‘normal’ one as ranges go out.

My 222 does 2,750fps with a 73gr ELD (BC of .398) which gives ballistics not dissimilar to a lot of factory 150gr 308 (in terms of trajectory and wind drift). You could add 100fps with a 223 and the 75gr ELD (which has a much better BC) may also be an option.

I don’t agree that the BC doesn’t matter other than at really extended ranges. I compared 2 bullets for my 222, the 73 ELD and 65 Gameking, even with the 65 travelling about 100fps faster, the drop and wind drift at 300m are:

- 65 = 19.4” drop and 13.3” drift.
- 73 = 19.1” drop and 10.1” drift.

So, while the drop doesn’t make a difference, I’d say having more than 3” of drift (at 10mph) does.

 

[Heym SR20]

It sounds like you want a rifle for small game, but also shooting gongs / targets etc.

The 223 is a very capable round. So is the 6.5cm. But you can fire 1.5 to 3 223 rounds for the cost of each 6.5cm depending on what ammo you use etc.

With a 1 in 8” twist you can use the longer ballistically efficient bullets that will work well out to 600m plus.

 

[Karhumies]

It sounds like you want a rifle for small game, but also shooting gongs / targets etc.

The 223 is a very capable round. So is the 6.5cm. But you can fire 1.5 to 3 223 rounds for the cost of each 6.5cm depending on what ammo you use etc.

With a 1 in 8” twist you can use the longer ballistically efficient bullets that will work well out to 600m plus.

basically yea, might be accurate to say i want a target rifle but small game counts as targets. Picture a frozen lake with a small hill overlooking it and small critters and roe deer on the far shore. I dress warm, bring coffee and a snack, i set up a rest with bags and a spotting scope with range finder. Then make it a challenge to hit my targets on the first shot. Ofcourse under small game i also count roe deer. My bullet lineup for either cartridge would include peregrine VLR4, TTSX, stuff like that.

I might misjudge but i feel like if i want to also target the occasional roe deer at those ranges a monolithic is pretty mutch a must for 223 to have enough penetration at longer range. No legal requirement for mono bullets tho, i just found that in the 222(legal for roe deer) the lead bullets are inconsistent in penetration, some being found completely mangled in the chest cavity at 200m range already.

 

[Lateral]

The reason I talked about the high BC 22s is that it’s (at least to my mind) what can make a fast twist 22CF more capable than a ‘normal’ one as ranges go out.

My 222 does 2,750fps with a 73gr ELD (BC of .398) which gives ballistics not dissimilar to a lot of factory 150gr 308 (in terms of trajectory and wind drift). You could add 100fps with a 223 and the 75gr ELD (which has a much better BC) may also be an option.

I don’t agree that the BC doesn’t matter other than at really extended ranges. I compared 2 bullets for my 222, the 73 ELD and 65 Gameking, even with the 65 travelling about 100fps faster, the drop and wind drift at 300m are:

- 65 = 19.4” drop and 13.3” drift.
- 73 = 19.1” drop and 10.1” drift.

So, while the drop doesn’t make a difference, I’d say having more than 3” of drift (at 10mph) does.

Andy,

But what are you actually comparing ? BC, bullet weight, bullet velocity, or a combination ?

To get a true "BC" performance comparison, would you not to have two bullets of the same weight, and velocity, but with different BC's ?

 

[Karhumies]

Andy,

But what are you actually comparing ? BC, bullet weight, bullet velocity, or a combination ?

To get a true "BC" performance comparison, would you not to have two bullets of the same weight, and velocity, but with different BC's ?

iam probably the least knowledgable on the subject here but logic suggests that BC will affect somewhat at any range and velocity by decreasing the rate at wich velocity is lost to air resistance.

might be negligible ofcourse

 

[Malxwal]

well thats the challenge. Been doing it pretty well with the 222rem out to 250-300m when its not too windy. But the slightest breeze and i miss. Ofcourse at that range the hare doesnt even react to a miss so i do get multiple chanses.

Misses can just as well be wounding shots.
If you insist on trying to do head shots on small animals at long range, buy the gun that is less impacted by wind, and hae more killing power.
Also once you start stretching the legs, the Creedmoor will take you further, with more consistent results.

 

[Karhumies]

Misses can just as well be wounding shots.
If you insist on trying to do head shots on small animals at long range, buy the gun that is less impacted by wind, and hae more killing power.
Also once you start stretching the legs, the Creedmoor will take you further, with more consistent results.

thats why i always use an expanding bullet and go for the head. Safest shot on small game in my experience. Either you miss, the head explodes or the body explodes. Worst case iam only eating the back legs. Taking roe deer at long range is something i may work up to if i feel confident but not something i would attempt right out of the gate and possible may never try. But i would like the option.

 

[Rafter]

Have a read of this 223 on deer

A 223 with 75 - 88 grain vld bullets is a very capable round. The wind is the thing, and the better the bc the more tolerance you have for a less than perfect wind call.

I'd buy a 223 and load whatever vld shoots best in your rifle - i used thousands of 75 grain amax when I was shooting a 223, learned a heap and had a huge amount of fun.

 

[tarponhead]

Iam doing better financially again and i have decided that i want to get a Tikka t3x tact A1. I have classic style rifles, I have Kalashnikov, I have a drilling, i have 2 shotguns, i have pretty mutch all i need at normal hunting ranges.

What i dont have and the dragon i keep chasing is something very customisable that will shoot a hare in the head at 300+ meters. I dont own a modern precision rifle.

That raises the question, its available in 223 260rem 308 and 6.5crmr. 260 is out for me based on twist rate and ammo availability.
308 is out because iam just not looking to ad another mid ranged 30 cal.

so 223 with a 1:8 twist or 6.5crmr with a 1:8 twist rate. Wich one to choose. Both will take any of the intended game legally: hare, roe deer, grouse, fox, racoon dog, rabbit. Recoil is a non issue in that metal chassis with a big dude behind it. what would be reasons to pick either one? normal ranges are 100-250 meter for me but i do ocassionally go out to over 300 and i have plans to push 500 in the future. Neither should lack power for its intended purpose but the less i have to compensate for drop and wind the better. I mostly load non toxic. In the future i may also want to do target shooting.

Wichever i get i would handload.

Look up Backfire on You Tube - the debate on which calibre/rifle, though fun, is endless…

 

[Lateral]

Are there very many factory 223's that can stabilize a 75gn + bullet ?

 

[Karhumies]

Are there very many factory 223's that can stabilize a 75gn + bullet ?

yea, nowadays there are. Not really in the "hunting" cathegory maybe but once you look into "tactical" and "PRS" rifles 1:8 seems almost the standard. Some even come in 1:7 twist

 

[Heym SR20]

basically yea, might be accurate to say i want a target rifle but small game counts as targets. Picture a frozen lake with a small hill overlooking it and small critters and roe deer on the far shore. I dress warm, bring coffee and a snack, i set up a rest with bags and a spotting scope with range finder. Then make it a challenge to hit my targets on the first shot. Ofcourse under small game i also count roe deer. My bullet lineup for either cartridge would include peregrine VLR4, TTSX, stuff like that.

I might misjudge but i feel like if i want to also target the occasional roe deer at those ranges a monolithic is pretty mutch a must for 223 to have enough penetration at longer range. No legal requirement for mono bullets tho, i just found that in the 222(legal for roe deer) the lead bullets are inconsistent in penetration, some being found completely mangled in the chest cavity at 200m range already.

I think you are correct with monolithics. I have shot plenty of Roe with my 223 and the 51gn VLR4 (mine is a 1 in 12” twist), from close out a bit under 200m and they penetrate right through both shoulders of a Roe buck, and they drop on the spot or just after a few yards.