Driven foxes - maximum range?

[chriswjx]

Evening folks,

Question for the more experienced - having never had the opportunity present before.

Estate has a strict no ground game policy. Foxes aren't classed as game, and so good shooters are expected to take a shot at them if the present a safe target. Underkeeper does a good job on the predator control though, so in 3 years of shooting on the estate, and 2 years of loading there, today was the first (live) fox I've seen on a drive.

Was out loading today. 4th drive, Basil Brush presented a very unsafe shot (skylining on a pseudo-ridge with heavy foliage in between as well), and so I declined to take the gun from my guest and shoot the bugger.

It did get me thinking though what range I would have felt comfortable that I would actually be killing Mr , and not just wounding him. We had 30g 5s, and the range would have been 25-30yds? I would like to think if I had shot a rabbit or a hare at that distance it would have connected with good result. Would the same be said if the fox had been shootable?

Cheers,
Chris

 

[enfieldspares]

The distance at which your shot has insufficient energy to penetrate through to the vitals AND insufficient number (in the pattern) to be certain that those that do penetrate deliver a kill. Personally with 1 1/16 ounce of #5 I'd be unwilling to pull the trigger at any distance over twenty yards. But FWIW ask our Australian member "JG" as organised fox days are a big thing there.

 

[chriswjx]

Ta

 

[Goingback]

A reasonable distance to deliver a lethal shot

 

[Liveonce]

Evening folks,

Question for the more experienced - having never had the opportunity present before.

Estate has a strict no ground game policy. Foxes aren't classed as game, and so good shooters are expected to take a shot at them if the present a safe target. Underkeeper does a good job on the predator control though, so in 3 years of shooting on the estate, and 2 years of loading there, today was the first (live) fox I've seen on a drive.

Was out loading today. 4th drive, Basil Brush presented a very unsafe shot (skylining on a pseudo-ridge with heavy foliage in between as well), and so I declined to take the gun from my guest and shoot the bugger.

It did get me thinking though what range I would have felt comfortable that I would actually be killing Mr , and not just wounding him. We had 30g 5s, and the range would have been 25-30yds? I would like to think if I had shot a rabbit or a hare at that distance it would have connected with good result. Would the same be said if the fox had been shootable?

Cheers,
Chris

wise decision if in doubt don’t shoot.

 

[jall55]

Foxes and driven days dont mix - seen so so many close incidents over the years
Not the time to sort the problem - people get far too excited and beaters and dogs turn up in the most unexpected places

 

[chriswjx]

Foxes and driven days dont mix - seen so so many close incidents over the years
Not the time to sort the problem - people get far too excited and beaters and dogs turn up in the most unexpected places

All in part of why I chose to decline shooting it. But the specifics of that drive, if the fox had cut a route about 10yd closer to us, I would have shot it - I know where the beaters are at that point of the drive (no where close, except for the flagger further up from us - again part of the reasons why the shot was declined).

I understand your thoughts though and certainly wouldn't have even remotely contemplated it on anywhere else but that estate.

A reasonable distance to deliver a lethal shot

As in 25-30yd is a reasonable distance to deliver a lethal shot?

I am quite familiar with what maximum range means, my question was what IS the maximum range for 30g 5s on a fluffy ginger target.

 

[Dodder]

Personally, if I knew I was going to be shooting Charlie with a shotgun I'd want to use a decent load of heavy shot, so maybe BB, no1 or no3 at close range - maybe 30 - 35yds max
I know everyone has a tale of killing a fox stone dead at 70yds using no7 shot but I want it to drop stone dead instantly and not be bowled over and run off to die a slow lingering death a few days later. I know that a decent load of heavy shot at close range will achieve that every time.

 

[jall55]

All in part of why I chose to decline shooting it. But the specifics of that drive, if the fox had cut a route about 10yd closer to us, I would have shot it - I know where the beaters are at that point of the drive (no where close, except for the flagger further up from us - again part of the reasons why the shot was declined).

I understand your thoughts though and certainly wouldn't have even remotely contemplated it on anywhere else but that estate.



As in 25-30yd is a reasonable distance to deliver a lethal shot?

I am quite familiar with what maximum range means, my question was what IS the maximum range for 30g 5s on a fluffy ginger target.

Seen it though mate - been on our shoot all my life - and still a beater - flagger - dog appears - No place for it in my opinion - never

 

[Bo Diddley]

Bolted a few with a terrier and shot them, 20-25 yards is sweet, 30 if it's in the clear. Always had 4's.

 

[Greenmist]

Shot plenty with a shotgun on organised drives, No1 shot works well, but never been on a driven day where the keeper has said take a shot if safe

 

[Dickie]

The problem on driven days is there could be a dog close on the foxes tail so to speak and it pops up just as you pull the trigger.

 

[Heym SR20]

I have shot a few foxes with a shotgun, but all have been close. At 20 yards most of the shot will be inside a side plate sized pattern so its getting the full 2,000 odd ft lbs of energy that a charge of shot provides. This shock is what kills. Doesn’t matter whether its 7 1/2s, 6 or no 4, lead or steel. At real close - ie sub 10 yards you are delivering a ball of shot that just causes a big hole in thin skinned game and instant transfer of energy - its why shotgun is favoured gor stopping leopards.

Once you get beyond 20 yards the pattern really starts to open up. By 30 to 40 yards you will only be hitting a fox sized target with a few pellets. Combined energy of the pellets is not really going to impact a fox sized animal a lot. Its now dependent on pellets having sufficient energy to penetrate through to the vitals.

I would suggest that a very useful combination gun may be the best medicine for the driven fox type scenario- a shot gun for close range, but the rifle for those longer ranges.

If you do want to shoot foxes at longer ranges with a shotgun you need a cartridge with pellets big enough to penetrate into the vitals and cause major trauma to heart and lungs. Challenge you have is a fox is really quite a small kill zone, so once you up towards the .36” max diameter for a Shotgun certificate your pellets are few in number and thus very easy to miss completely the kill zone. It is a job for a shotgun with plenty of payload such as a semi and plenty of testing pattern density. Semi auto 3 1/2” comes to mind.

 

[Bowland blades]

Evening folks,

Question for the more experienced - having never had the opportunity present before.

Estate has a strict no ground game policy. Foxes aren't classed as game, and so good shooters are expected to take a shot at them if the present a safe target. Underkeeper does a good job on the predator control though, so in 3 years of shooting on the estate, and 2 years of loading there, today was the first (live) fox I've seen on a drive.

Was out loading today. 4th drive, Basil Brush presented a very unsafe shot (skylining on a pseudo-ridge with heavy foliage in between as well), and so I declined to take the gun from my guest and shoot the bugger.

It did get me thinking though what range I would have felt comfortable that I would actually be killing Mr , and not just wounding him. We had 30g 5s, and the range would have been 25-30yds? I would like to think if I had shot a rabbit or a hare at that distance it would have connected with good result. Would the same be said if the fox had been shootable?

Cheers,
Chris

Its more important to be able to place your shot. Number 1 steel or larger through 1/2 choke is my favourite .
Game Loads are not suitable especially if the shooter doesn't get the importance of putting the shot in the right spot and the need to be in proper range

 

[enfieldspares]

At real close - ie sub 10 yards you are delivering a ball of shot that just causes a big hole in thin skinned game and instant transfer of energy - its why shotgun is favoured for stopping leopards.

This. I have recounted before how through my late father I met a man who had used a 12 bore with #6 shot to kill a tiger...at close range "following up"...for the reason as above stated. With the observation to me that "Number #6 shot. It holds together remarkably well at close range."

 

[Goingback]

All in part of why I chose to decline shooting it. But the specifics of that drive, if the fox had cut a route about 10yd closer to us, I would have shot it - I know where the beaters are at that point of the drive (no where close, except for the flagger further up from us - again part of the reasons why the shot was declined).

I understand your thoughts though and certainly wouldn't have even remotely contemplated it on anywhere else but that estate.



As in 25-30yd is a reasonable distance to deliver a lethal shot?

I am quite familiar with what maximum range means, my question was what IS the maximum range for 30g 5s on a fluffy ginger target.

Personally I would not go more than 30 yards with no.5's. I have found that 4's in Rottweill Waidmanshell 34g nickel have been the best for stopping foxes.
I do agree with the above posters that a driven day is not the place to shoot them

 

[Rhodesianjess]

I had a Labrador bitch with one eye from a "gentleman" taking a 100%safe shot at a fox on a driven day. This despite being told that no ground game includes foxes. Dealt with by the boss because if I'd have dealt with him I'd have lost my guns and job etc.
Have gone home on quite a few shoot days when the host has announced at the safety briefing that foxes are to be shot. This generally annoys host and keeper as my dogs come with me, leaving them with a gap in the picking up team. Twice other pickers up have left with me, really compounding the estates loss.
IMO foxes are not for driven day, keepers job not guests to sort them. Plus an ounce of birdshot up the backside at long range doesn't have the effect heavier shot has close up.
Just my opinion though, only you can decide to pull the trigger and then stand by your decision.

 

[Smellydog]

#5 or #4 at under 40yds is fine.
#6, 30yds.
Broadside only though!

A fox is not thick skinned and it's lungs are easily reached. Don't be tempted to use large shot. Pattern density is far more effective than a couple of BB.

 

[Liveonce]

As in 25-30yd is a reasonable distance to deliver a lethal shot?

I am quite familiar with what maximum range means, my question was what IS the maximum range for 30g 5s on a fluffy ginger target.

I have witnessed a fox badly injured by being shot in the rear with a game load of 5s that limped away, fortunately then it reappeared close to another gun who killed it, giving it both barrels.

Was it distance, just a poor shot, wrong cartridge, fox moved or a combination that was at fault? cannot say for certain.

Personally when we were out doing fox drives i used 36gm of 2 shot and kept to a sensible distance,

Far better to use a suitable calibre rifle on foxes.

But as is usual in shooting all will have their own differing views.

 

[Smellydog]

I have witnessed a fox badly injured by being shot in the rear with a game load of 5s that limped away, fortunately then it reappeared close to another gun who killed it, giving it both barrels.

Was it distance, just a poor shot, wrong cartridge, fox moved or a combination that was at fault? cannot say for certain.

Personally when we were out doing fox drives i used 36gm of 2 shot and kept to a sensible distance,

Far better to use a suitable calibre rifle on foxes.

But as is usual in shooting all will have their own differing views.

Being shot in the rear was the issue. The risk of just injuring a fox going away with any type of shotgun load is very great unless under 10yds, then a follow up will be needed!
I always recommend that a side on is best. Even #7.5 will work at 30yds then.
Inexperienced shots are the cause of the horror stories we hear.
Be disciplined enough to wait for a broadside shot. Works every time.