Twist rate affecting bullet expansion

Jameshenry

Well-Known Member
Was watching a podcast by Barnes bullets with a guy from vortex ( Ryan Muckenhirn) discussing bullets and rotational velocity was touched upon, which I take it as the faster a bullet is spun the more likely it is to expand or blow up in some cases, I know bullet construction has a lot to play in it and like most things it's never straightforward, I found it very interesting and just from my own limited experience the other night I shot a fox with my new tikka 223 1 in 8 twist, with a remington 55 grain soft point and it expanded way more than I ever experienced before, basically almost blowing up on a chest shot and this is out of a 16 inch barrel, so probably 200 fps slower than factory velocity, my .222 with 50 grain soft points through a 1 in 14 barrel would usually get a pass through on a chest shot, interesting on others thoughts on it
 
This too piqued my interest so I did some googling (dangerous, I know) and the short answer is the kinetic energy from rotational velocity is in a much smaller in proportion than the kinetic energy from linear velocity. The backyard proof of this is if you fire a rifle you'll get a lot of energy driven back into your shoulder but I'm fairly sure you would never notice the rifle twisting in your hand opposite to the bullets spin... every action must have an equal and opposite re-action.
 
This too piqued my interest so I did some googling (dangerous, I know) and the short answer is the kinetic energy from rotational velocity is in a much smaller in proportion than the kinetic energy from linear velocity. The backyard proof of this is if you fire a rifle you'll get a lot of energy driven back into your shoulder but I'm fairly sure you would never notice the rifle twisting in your hand opposite to the bullets spin... every action must have an equal and opposite re-action.
Yes I agree with what your saying , I was more interested in the effect the rotational speed of the bullet and what affect it has on the target animal , especially bullets designed to expand , I might be wrong but I suppose you could look at it as centrifugal force in some respect, the faster the bullet is spun the more it wants to pull itself apart if is designed to expand or fragment that is
 
The difference between a 1:12 and a 1:8 twist is quite a lot in rotational speeds, 180,000rpm @ 3000fps for a 1:12 and 270,000 rpm with a 1:8

It's interesting that the spin caused greater expansion although I cant wrap my head around why.
You should try longer bullets, either slightly heavier 65/70gr or those made from a less dense material.
The PSP from Remington (Wiki tells me) is only 0.69 to 0.73" long (17.8mm ish), perhaps not suited to such a fast twist ?
Maybe it was slightly unstable or expanded before/when it got there ?
 
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I think the answer lies in the kinetic energy there's a lot more driving the bullet forward than around, once the bullet hits an animal it'll dump all that kinetic energy into something other than its speed (linear and angular) which will be deformation of the bullet and animal. Greater KE means greater deformation, and the majority of the KE is linear.

The other side of this looking at the physical results rather than the theory gets very tricky when you consider the difference on target composition (bone/flesh/fur), angle of shot, bullet composition, range. Would probably require two rifles firing the same ammo with everything matching except twist rate into ballistic gel to get the fairest comparison.... but then would you get a difference in muzzle velocity from the differing twists?
 
Was watching a podcast by Barnes bullets with a guy from vortex ( Ryan Muckenhirn) discussing bullets and rotational velocity was touched upon, which I take it as the faster a bullet is spun the more likely it is to expand or blow up in some cases, I know bullet construction has a lot to play in it and like most things it's never straightforward, I found it very interesting and just from my own limited experience the other night I shot a fox with my new tikka 223 1 in 8 twist, with a remington 55 grain soft point and it expanded way more than I ever experienced before, basically almost blowing up on a chest shot and this is out of a 16 inch barrel, so probably 200 fps slower than factory velocity, my .222 with 50 grain soft points through a 1 in 14 barrel would usually get a pass through on a chest shot, interesting on others thoughts on it
Almost certainly. We don’t really consider rotational energy - the flywheel effect of a spinning mass - in that it is difficult to measure. We can measure a bullets velocity quite easily and have been able to do so for a couple of hundred years. And easy enough to work out the kinetic energy from mass of bullet multiplied by the square of the velocity.

Rotational energy is about the moment of inertia and the square of the rotational velocity. Moment of inertia is in effect the mass abd the distance it is from the centre of rotation.

Take a dog lead and spin it around - you will feel it pulling on your hand. Spin it faster and will pull more. Add a wee pooch to the end and it will pull more. Add a Labrador and your arm will come out of its socket.

That is what is happening inside a spinning bullet, and as it hits and breaks the bits fly outwards from the centre.

In the early days of high velocity centrefire rifles the quickly found that the traditional lead bullet didn’t work very well. They caused a lot of lead fouling and in many cases didn’t reach the target. This was surmised to be the lead bullet basically spinning itself apart (no high speed photography in the late 1800s early 1900s).

The whole reason for using a copper / steel jacket was to keep the bullet together in flight, and then keeping it together as it goes into the target and this getting penetration. Hence the reason for jacketed bullets.

If you read old hunting / rifle articles from either side of the War when cartridges such as the 22 Swift and 270 Winchester came into being with velocities well over 3,000 fps one of the early complaints was perceived bullet failure with bullets blowing on way to target. This is one of the reasons why these older high Velocity cartridges use slow twist rates - 1 in 14” etc. They have more enough velocity to impart fast enough spin to stabilise a short bullet, but then propel that bullet very fast.

But such bullets fragment and explode on target - doesn’t really matter on a varmint but not so good on a game animal.

They then started using such bonding the core to jacket, or using jackets with bridges across the middle such as the Partition, H Mantle etc. These really came about for high velocity magnum big game cartridges to provide a bullet that would survive the initial impact on a deer, elk, buffalo etc.

Solid bullets have been around since the beginning of the nitro powder era, but it was the likes of Barnes that really brought them to every day hunting. By making a bullet out of solid copper or copper alloy, you remove all the issues of lead not holding together. Careful design of the tip and the annealing of the copper allows good expansion on impact.

Faster twists have been with since the birth of the 7x57, 6.5 Mannlicher and 303’s. The first bullets were like long pencils and required a 1in 8” twist to stabilise. They had superb penetration performance, and indeed pretty good long range terminal performance. But velocities were in the 2,300 to 2,400 fps range, and trajectories were not particularly flat ( but much much flatter than previous black powder cartridges).

Military developments went towards higher velocities with slower twist rates of 1 in 10” in 30-06, 303 which were shooting 150 ish grain pointed spitzer type full metal jacket bullets north of 2700 fps.

This culminated with adoption of 5.56 NATO with a 1 in 12” twist firing a little 55gn FMJ at 3300 fps or so.

This worked brilliant on soft targets such as human flesh, in that the FMJ was on the verge of stability and would tumble on impact causing big wounds. But that little bullet ran out of steam at 300 yards, and wouldn’t penetrate very well.

So they started developing bigger longer bullets and faster twist rates barrels to stabilise them. Modern Nato 5.56mm is using a 63gn bullet with a twist rate of 1 in 7” but muzzle velocities are back down at the 2700 fps or less in shorter barrels.

Coming back to rotational energy I posted a video by Ron Spomer a few months back. An American company has developed a large bore subsonic rifle that to all intents and purposes is silent. It doesn’t produce a lot of kinetic energy - well below the 1,000 ft lbs sorts of levels that are typically thought to be minimum. But it uses a 1 in 3” twist with a very fast spinning copper bullet. This is designed into a spinning blade on impact, that cuts its way through the animal mincing everything in front of it. Reports are that Cape Buffalo have been killed very quickly with it.
 
This too piqued my interest so I did some googling (dangerous, I know) and the short answer is the kinetic energy from rotational velocity is in a much smaller in proportion than the kinetic energy from linear velocity. The backyard proof of this is if you fire a rifle you'll get a lot of energy driven back into your shoulder but I'm fairly sure you would never notice the rifle twisting in your hand opposite to the bullets spin... every action must have an equal and opposite re-action.

i remember back in my pistol days with heavy loads/bullets in my 8,3/8'' mod 29 there was defo torque noticed , heavier the load/bullet the more torque and a friends 454 casull was very noticeable
 
Here you go - video I was referring to above. Have a watch of this video. At about minute 14.30 they start talking fast rotational twist and rotational energy.

 
Almost certainly. We don’t really consider rotational energy - the flywheel effect of a spinning mass - in that it is difficult to measure. We can measure a bullets velocity quite easily and have been able to do so for a couple of hundred years. And easy enough to work out the kinetic energy from mass of bullet multiplied by the square of the velocity.

Rotational energy is about the moment of inertia and the square of the rotational velocity. Moment of inertia is in effect the mass abd the distance it is from the centre of rotation.

Take a dog lead and spin it around - you will feel it pulling on your hand. Spin it faster and will pull more. Add a wee pooch to the end and it will pull more. Add a Labrador and your arm will come out of its socket.

That is what is happening inside a spinning bullet, and as it hits and breaks the bits fly outwards from the centre.

In the early days of high velocity centrefire rifles the quickly found that the traditional lead bullet didn’t work very well. They caused a lot of lead fouling and in many cases didn’t reach the target. This was surmised to be the lead bullet basically spinning itself apart (no high speed photography in the late 1800s early 1900s).

The whole reason for using a copper / steel jacket was to keep the bullet together in flight, and then keeping it together as it goes into the target and this getting penetration. Hence the reason for jacketed bullets.

If you read old hunting / rifle articles from either side of the War when cartridges such as the 22 Swift and 270 Winchester came into being with velocities well over 3,000 fps one of the early complaints was perceived bullet failure with bullets blowing on way to target. This is one of the reasons why these older high Velocity cartridges use slow twist rates - 1 in 14” etc. They have more enough velocity to impart fast enough spin to stabilise a short bullet, but then propel that bullet very fast.

But such bullets fragment and explode on target - doesn’t really matter on a varmint but not so good on a game animal.

They then started using such bonding the core to jacket, or using jackets with bridges across the middle such as the Partition, H Mantle etc. These really came about for high velocity magnum big game cartridges to provide a bullet that would survive the initial impact on a deer, elk, buffalo etc.

Solid bullets have been around since the beginning of the nitro powder era, but it was the likes of Barnes that really brought them to every day hunting. By making a bullet out of solid copper or copper alloy, you remove all the issues of lead not holding together. Careful design of the tip and the annealing of the copper allows good expansion on impact.

Faster twists have been with since the birth of the 7x57, 6.5 Mannlicher and 303’s. The first bullets were like long pencils and required a 1in 8” twist to stabilise. They had superb penetration performance, and indeed pretty good long range terminal performance. But velocities were in the 2,300 to 2,400 fps range, and trajectories were not particularly flat ( but much much flatter than previous black powder cartridges).

Military developments went towards higher velocities with slower twist rates of 1 in 10” in 30-06, 303 which were shooting 150 ish grain pointed spitzer type full metal jacket bullets north of 2700 fps.

This culminated with adoption of 5.56 NATO with a 1 in 12” twist firing a little 55gn FMJ at 3300 fps or so.

This worked brilliant on soft targets such as human flesh, in that the FMJ was on the verge of stability and would tumble on impact causing big wounds. But that little bullet ran out of steam at 300 yards, and wouldn’t penetrate very well.

So they started developing bigger longer bullets and faster twist rates barrels to stabilise them. Modern Nato 5.56mm is using a 63gn bullet with a twist rate of 1 in 7” but muzzle velocities are back down at the 2700 fps or less in shorter barrels.

Coming back to rotational energy I posted a video by Ron Spomer a few months back. An American company has developed a large bore subsonic rifle that to all intents and purposes is silent. It doesn’t produce a lot of kinetic energy - well below the 1,000 ft lbs sorts of levels that are typically thought to be minimum. But it uses a 1 in 3” twist with a very fast spinning copper bullet. This is designed into a spinning blade on impact, that cuts its way through the animal mincing everything in front of it. Reports are that Cape Buffalo have been killed very quickly with it.
Yes they mentioned that really fast twist subsonic cartridge, I believe Barnes were using a 1 in 5 twist barrel to do some tests of there own, the guy from Vortex (Ryan) he seems very knowledgeable, he has referred to some of the Barnes bullets as "Ninja blenders" retaining pretty much all there weight and spinning fast with the four copper petals curling out and back ...I can see what he means
 
if you imagine a deer as 8'' thick and shoot it with a rifling twist of 1-8'' it will basically turn one rotation through the beast hardly a buzz saw ! even allowing for the bullet slowing as it moves through the beast it is still only likely to do maybe 2 rotations ?

plus the rotational mass of a bullet is tiny , if it was a lister engine flywheel then it might have a bit of rotational energy !

a fascinating subject none the less and hopefully someone will investigate with ballistic gel and one of those super cameras ?
 
RPM and rotational inertia is largely irrelevant in terms of actual expansion I suspect.

The forward travel of the bullet is so much more significant in terms of the expansion, any breakup of the bullet is much more likely to be as a component of rapid degredation of forward velocity and ingress of liquid/solid into any hollow point, opening the meplat further and further reducing the rate of velocity loss.

If you consider the high frame rate plate shots, the bullets almost stop spinning on impact.
Admittedly this is a much denser target but the rotational inertia is very small on such a small radius object and massively reduced when it slows down and deforms.

The mid air "jacket shedding" rotational velocity only really comes into effect when light, non bended/cannulure bullets are driven close to or over 4000fps
Consider the 204s and 22-250s chucking 39-50gr VMax, they are not all exploding mid flight.
 
Was watching a podcast by Barnes bullets with a guy from vortex ( Ryan Muckenhirn) discussing bullets and rotational velocity was touched upon, which I take it as the faster a bullet is spun the more likely it is to expand or blow up in some cases, I know bullet construction has a lot to play in it and like most things it's never straightforward, I found it very interesting and just from my own limited experience the other night I shot a fox with my new tikka 223 1 in 8 twist, with a remington 55 grain soft point and it expanded way more than I ever experienced before, basically almost blowing up on a chest shot and this is out of a 16 inch barrel, so probably 200 fps slower than factory velocity, my .222 with 50 grain soft points through a 1 in 14 barrel would usually get a pass through on a chest shot, interesting on others thoughts on it
Same soft points?

All soft points are not made equal, some will expand violently as you describe, others - those designed for hunting or 22-250 velocities - will not, unless pushed really hard velocity wise.
 
Yes they mentioned that really fast twist subsonic cartridge, I believe Barnes were using a 1 in 5 twist barrel to do some tests of there own, the guy from Vortex (Ryan) he seems very knowledgeable, he has referred to some of the Barnes bullets as "Ninja blenders" retaining pretty much all there weight and spinning fast with the four copper petals curling out and back ...I can see what he means
Sounds like he's just trying to help Barnes sell some bullets!!
 
In essence if your using high velocity varmit bullets which are spinning at a huge rate in effect on the soft target is like exploding a mini grenade inside the target.
I expect the jacket and core radiate out almost spontaneously hence may side hit foxs have no exit and gurgle when you pick them up as the bullet effectively maccerates the internal organs. Also and best all the energy is dumped on the target.
It's a well know fact in .223 with heavier longer bullets in tight twist barrels some rounds never hit the target as they explode mid air.
Laurie has detailed this on some of his articles.
Basically the bullet tears itself apart if spun at too high a rate.

It also depends on the bullet quality.
Myself and other 204 users had bad experience with a batch of 39 BK which were spontaneously exploding.
You can search for the extensive thread on here.

I find that a 69 TMK in .223 has similar terminal effects on fur and feather as a V max.

D
 
In essence if your using high velocity varmit bullets which are spinning at a huge rate in effect on the soft target is like exploding a mini grenade inside the target.
I expect the jacket and core radiate out almost spontaneously hence may side hit foxs have no exit and gurgle when you pick them up as the bullet effectively maccerates the internal organs. Also and best all the energy is dumped on the target.
It's a well know fact in .223 with heavier longer bullets in tight twist barrels some rounds never hit the target as they explode mid air.
Laurie has detailed this on some of his articles.
Basically the bullet tears itself apart if spun at too high a rate.

It also depends on the bullet quality.
Myself and other 204 users had bad experience with a batch of 39 BK which were spontaneously exploding.
You can search for the extensive thread on here.

I find that a 69 TMK in .223 has similar terminal effects on fur and feather as a V max.

D

i would argue this has nothing really to do with rotational speed and is more a function of fragile varmint bullets at high velocity


bullets can be over spun though and never reach the target , observers claimed they saw a grey cloud just infront of the muzzle
 
Same soft points?

All soft points are not made equal, some will expand violently as you describe, others - those designed for hunting or 22-250 velocities - will not, unless pushed really hard velocity wise.
No they weren't they same soft points, but I would imagine they would be of similar construction as 223 and 222 aren't hugely different ballisticly
 
Wait till you see the results when a high speed lab centrifuge explodes.
We had one self destructive when it went out of balance and the lid lock failed and released the contents which were spread in a circular pattern all over the room. Miracle nobody was killed.
Basically when a frangible bullet explodes all the fragments are thrown outwards a radial pattern. It's not the effect of compression.
The bullet is extremely fragile so in the case of .204 if you hit the slightest thing it will disintegrate. Ie thick grass stem nettle, cow parsley. Maize stubble is a no no. It's almost spontaneous.
I have had several occasions when a dead certain fox has survived because the bullet disintegrated on route.
D
 
RPM and rotational inertia is largely irrelevant in terms of actual expansion I suspect.

The forward travel of the bullet is so much more significant in terms of the expansion, any breakup of the bullet is much more likely to be as a component of rapid degredation of forward velocity and ingress of liquid/solid into any hollow point, opening the meplat further and further reducing the rate of velocity loss.

If you consider the high frame rate plate shots, the bullets almost stop spinning on impact.
Admittedly this is a much denser target but the rotational inertia is very small on such a small radius object and massively reduced when it slows down and deforms.

The mid air "jacket shedding" rotational velocity only really comes into effect when light, non bended/cannulure bullets are driven close to or over 4000fps
Consider the 204s and 22-250s chucking 39-50gr VMax, they are not all exploding mid flight.
The 8,6 with Barnes tsx style of bullet, makes impressive corkscrew holes in gel so it look like the rotation are going on for a long distance inside the target. Its not really suited for c&c bullets.
 
The 8,6 with Barnes tsx style of bullet, makes impressive corkscrew holes in gel so it look like the rotation are going on for a long distance inside the target. Its not really suited for c&c bullets.
got any pictures i'd be interested in having a butchers?

i'm also interested in any info anyone might have on the 190gr 308 hornady sub bullet at sub velocities
 
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