Guns unbagged before firing point

[Mike 01]

I think VSS hit the nail on the head here: "I'd rather see an unloaded gun out of a case (and be able to check if necessary) than a gun of unknown (and uncheckable) status in a case." I am always a bit wary about rifles inside a case because of the inexplicable habits of some people who close the bolt and pull the trigger when putting the rifle in a case. At best, in terms of Bisley rules, they are then wandering around with a rifle that has a closed bolt with no breech flag. At worst, the incidents mentioned above have shown what can happen.

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

I joined bisley last year as its now my local range and tbh I was absolutely shocked at the saftey - Which is funny considering they wont stop harping on about it.

On the whole its safe - when you have professional people on the range its fine. The club shoots and comps are rigid which is great.

From experience the ones to watch are either - Elderly or in the DPM army gang on open practice that are sketchy

I pulled a rifle off a bloke after he got it jammed shut at the 200m point and didnt know if it was loaded or not. And decided to sweep the 100m point and then the line. I questioned if it was loaded or not, he said he didnt know "but the same thing happened 2 weeks ago" dealt with it anyway.

Got back home to see a FB post from a gun smith who took apart a jammed rifle a week before loaded after the bloke promised it wasn't. Lone behold - same rifle.

So I dont rate bisley really.

 

[bottletopbill]

I thumb the chamber to check empty as my rifles have fixed mags so visual that the mags are empty then trigger held as in pulled position on a closed but not swung down bolt then wswing down bolt and spring tension is slowly released. All this with muzzle in a very safe direction. This was how I was taught CF handling on my Jagdschein course. I had done over 20 years of UK .22lr small bore prone before that in Deal Kents clubhouse which worked differently but was still safe.

Dover and deal was my club until it closed for covid it was a 140 round trip every week

 

[Sonicdmb73]

“Stupid is as stupid does.”

What do I mean by this? I mean that all too often people follow a process without actually carrying out the actions it entails or understanding the reason they are doing it.

Rules at Bisley are bolt out &/or breach flag in when not on the firing line. Firearms in such condition can be carried to & from the firing line in a muzzle up position.

The exception to this is for gallery rifle disciplines where shooters keep firearms bagged & only unbag on the firing line when instructed to do so. Bagged firearms are considered to be safe despite the fact no-one can see whether the bolt is out or a breach flag is fitted.

A real life example of “Stupid is as stupid does”.

Gallery rifle shooter turns up to non GR event with rifle in bag & places bag on ground behind shooters on firing line. Shooter is then called to shoot so brings the bag up to the firing line & requests permission to unbag, which is given.

Shooter removes a 10/22 with working parts forward, ie bolt forward & hammer cocked, & magazine in place. Shooter then pulls cocking lever back & out pops a live round…

Shooter instructed to remove magazine which on inspection contains another 9 live rounds. Rifle is checked & safety is found to be off. So a ‘safe’ rifle in a bag was actually loaded & being carried without the safety applied.

Shooter had no idea why the rifle was loaded as “it was cleared at my club last time I used it two weeks ago”.

Dissecting the situation, the shooter was so used to doing things ‘parrot fashion’ that when his rifle had been cleared on the firing line & he'd been told to bag it, unseen by the RO who had moved in to clear the next shooter on the line, he put the magazine back in & let the working parts forward. The magazine he’d put in was his ‘spare’ that he kept loaded in case he needed to swap one midway through a course of fire because of feed failures etc. not one of his empty ones.

As far as everyone around him was concerned his rifle was ‘safe’ because it was in a bag. Had it been unbagged he would have had to have the working parts back & he’d have been required to put a breach flag in so all could see it was cleared.

That rifle was then transported to & put into the boot of his car before he drove home. When he got home he removed the bag & took it indoors before removing the rifle & putting it in his cabinet.

Two weeks later he removed the rifle & put it in the bag before putting into the boot of his car & driving to the range where he removed it & placed the bag behind his fellow shooters & pointing directly at them.

OK he should have checked the rifle when taking out of the bag & putting it in the gun cabinet at home but he didn’t because he had been indoctrinated that a bagged rifle is a safe rifle… so too had all the shooters around him.

This happened when I was RO at a club event some years ago & it is why I cringe every time I get a rifle brought to the firing line in a bag.

Just because a firearm is bagged does not make it safe!

Bolt out &/or breach flag in & carry it muzzle upwards.

I have to agree, because I have seen similar happen. The other reason I have yet to develop X-ray vision so cannot see through a gun bag. I can however see a bolt or chamber flag, if a magazine is fitted etc. When the rifle is out of the bag. If I see something amiss I can then politely ask its owner if it's safe or ask them to make it so.

My old boss had a hole in his Land Cruiser, luckily the bullet hit the seatbelt reel having been fired by his mate from his empty rifle as it was put into the back of the motor.
So all in all I'd rather see the rifle and its "state" than it be in a bag and have no idea.

I run gallery rifle comps at our range and guns are usually bagged on the firing point. When moving up and down the range & scoring and it raining etc there are benefits of bagging a gun. You could argue that if a gun is in a bag then people can't fettle with it and do something stupid. Not likely but just as likely as someone putting a loaded gun in a bag?

Human nature being as it is there is always scope for the idiot factor. It can be the briefest of moments but that is all it takes. We have specific rules and NSP's for live and blank firing. Multiple staff to check for clear, yet ear defenders are left on. Why? Because even though principal there should not be a UD (unintended discharge (ie you followed the NSP's but missed the round)) while pointing in a safe direction you get a bang. All your procedures prevented injury, but someone still missed that round.

No that is exactly my point - you simply can't put a mag back in a gun when it's zipped in a bag

so if it is in a bag unless it is on the firing point then this won't happen

Edit: Sorry that sounded ruder than I meant - yes it is completely carelessness, but people are careless and stupid at times and rules like this prevent that being a problem

Beg to differ, I can fit any of my magazines in my rifles while they are in their bags. Other rifle/bag combinations you possibly won't get a mag in the rifle. But I'd rather rely on seeing it was empty than hoping it was.

I would much rather see a firearm (of any type) broken, bolt open, flagged or whatever visual method of showing clearly and promptly the state it is in.
You would do better to secure ammunition in a lock box to be opened only on the firing line. You can't load it accidentally if you have to get it out of lock box first.

I will add I check rifles out of the cabinet, into the gun bag, out of the bag and the reverse. Even if I am the only person handling them. Safety is a product of following safe handling rules rigidly regardless of if you are alone or with others.

 

[John Gryphon]

My question: am I being too pedantic, overthinking, and unrealistic

Yes.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Dover and deal was my club until it closed for covid it was a 140 round trip every week

Did it open again afterwards?

 

[bottletopbill]

Did it open again afterwards?

Think so but i found a club one mile away from my home so left.
Did make enquires but all new staff so never went back.

 

[gixer1]

This is an interesting one - many clubs allow firearms to be unbagged and even carried to the firing point unbagged as long as they are demonstrably clear - I personally don’t like this practice.

The club I am in do not allow anyone to touch a firearm outside of a fumble zone if not on the firing point and I like this rule.

No one is even to stand next to a firearm on the point when people are forward patching etc.

One thing mentioned above that I don’t agree with “if it’s experienced shooters”….that makes no real difference to me - I personally went to clear an underlever of a well known U.K. national shooter - he had the action open and I asked him to cycle it (we have a rule of 3 cycles then leave it open) on doing this a round ejected, then another and another - I then asked him to keep cycling…he was a little embarrassed and got a little frosty due to the embarrassment - I really don’t give a sh*t!

Everyone has off days, we have all done things we would rather forget - everyone should be treated in the same way by the RO, it’s too easy to assume experienced people have done something!

One thing we noticed with our RO’s is people were getting in the habit of saying “gun is clear” as they walked along the line - it was almost an involuntary action as they walked along - even though they hadn’t finished observing the cycling of the action - something we brought to everyone attention.

We don’t want to ruin discussion and banter - I don’t think a completely silent range is required but RO’s do need to be able to say “right, quiet down folks” when required and maintain control of the range.

As mentioned, on many days the banter is the priority and the shooting a close second!

 

[Jim Hutton]

This is an interesting one - many clubs allow firearms to be unbagged and even carried to the firing point unbagged as long as they are demonstrably clear - I personally don’t like this practice.

The club I am in do not allow anyone to touch a firearm outside of a fumble zone if not on the firing point and I like this rule.

No one is even to stand next to a firearm on the point when people are forward patching etc.

One thing mentioned above that I don’t agree with “if it’s experienced shooters”….that makes no real difference to me - I personally went to clear an underlever of a well known U.K. national shooter - he had the action open and I asked him to cycle it (we have a rule of 3 cycles then leave it open) on doing this a round ejected, then another and another - I then asked him to keep cycling…he was a little embarrassed and got a little frosty due to the embarrassment - I really don’t give a sh*t!

Everyone has off days, we have all done things we would rather forget - everyone should be treated in the same way by the RO, it’s too easy to assume experienced people have done something!

One thing we noticed with our RO’s is people were getting in the habit of saying “gun is clear” as they walked along the line - it was almost an involuntary action as they walked along - even though they hadn’t finished observing the cycling of the action - something we brought to everyone attention.

We don’t want to ruin discussion and banter - I don’t think a completely silent range is required but RO’s do need to be able to say “right, quiet down folks” when required and maintain control of the range.

As mentioned, on many days the banter is the priority and the shooting a close second!

I couldn't agree more. Its all very well saying you can see other shooters guns and whether they are clear or not but when you are shooting and they are behind you how can you possibly tell if they are safe.

 

[Bowland blades]

Hey last year i tried two different shooting clubs ( mainly for my youngest ) she has her FAC a couple of years and is older than 18 years . The first club i reported to the police as one of the team lost his temper while other team members eyes popped out their heads
The other club just plain admitted they just wanted my daughter to wheel about so they could hang their hat on the wheelchair friendly .
Now i have been a member of quite a few club ranges in years past ( among some of the best ) What i PERSONALLY think is Clubs might very well being more to shut target shooting than to keep the sport going .
By the way I held my tonge and walked away
BTW in the years i shot on ranges and clubs , i only ever witnessed anyone get a polite rebuke and am pretty ok with that . Oh yes , i have had an odd civil rebuke a time or two along with most folks . Just like it happens on driven days and on the clays

 

[ashray]

Out of interest does any one know the cost of the rso course at bisley and is it over one or two days or more ? i shoot at bisley on my own and do see some strange activity so might do the course so i know the rights and wrongs according to the nra.

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Out of interest does any one know the cost of the rso course at bisley and is it over one or two days or more ? i shoot at bisley on my own and do see some strange activity so might do the course so i know the rights and wrongs according to the nra.

Dont bother...

I hold the quals already and they wanted me to pay to do a range saftey qual despite RCO being the overreaching qual.

Its only worth it if your going to use them as part of a club.

I dont think the safe shoots card is worth anything personaly. Controversial I know but seen some absolute lemons that posess one!

Its an intresting one, its a real mixture of quality's and competency there.

 

[Jagare]

It's a good job that many on this thread don't visit a Swedish shooting range. They would be going faint with an attack of the vapours.
I turn up at the range and take my rifle out of its slip. I then walk to the club house, firing point, often one and the same with the bolt open and the muzzle facing in a safe direction. Inside the club house, firing point I put my rifle in the rack with the rest of the rifles. When it's my turn to shoot, I take the rifle to the firing point and only load the magazine and rifle when it's my turn to shoot. When I've shot, I show the range officer that the rifle is empty and put the rifle back in the rack.
I can't recall seeing any unsafe gun handling down the range.

 

[weblyish]

Hey last year i tried two different shooting clubs ( mainly for my youngest ) she has her FAC a couple of years and is older than 18 years . The first club i reported to the police as one of the team lost his temper while other team members eyes popped out their heads
The other club just plain admitted they just wanted my daughter to wheel about so they could hang their hat on the wheelchair friendly .
Now i have been a member of quite a few club ranges in years past ( among some of the best ) What i PERSONALLY think is Clubs might very well being more to shut target shooting than to keep the sport going .
By the way I held my tonge and walked away
BTW in the years i shot on ranges and clubs , i only ever witnessed anyone get a polite rebuke and am pretty ok with that . Oh yes , i have had an odd civil rebuke a time or two along with most folks . Just like it happens on driven days and on the clays

Can i ask a question re wheelchair - assuming you did find a club for her at some point - we recently had an existing member require one for a while which brought up some questions re Risk assessment

do you make any adjustments for lead transfer from the floor (floor, to wheel, to hands) - we have a fairly strict hand wash policy on exit but that fails if you immediately touch the wheels again - and our range is cleaned regularly but is heavily used by Air and 22lr so there is a fair amount of lead on the floor

everything else seemed easily managed - we needed to lose one of the removeable lane dividers to give space for the chair to get down the range which was fine until they ended up the wrong side of the pair of lanes and got cases raining down on her

 

[finnbear270]

As long as you are wearing ear & eye protection, it is normal practice to walk from the firing points even to the office, Carrying AR's and a holstered side arm here,

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

It's a good job that many on this thread don't visit a Swedish shooting range. They would be going faint with an attack of the vapours.
I turn up at the range and take my rifle out of its slip. I then walk to the club house, firing point, often one and the same with the bolt open and the muzzle facing in a safe direction. Inside the club house, firing point I put my rifle in the rack with the rest of the rifles. When it's my turn to shoot, I take the rifle to the firing point and only load the magazine and rifle when it's my turn to shoot. When I've shot, I show the range officer that the rifle is empty and put the rifle back in the rack.
I can't recall seeing any unsafe gun handling down the range.

Thats because thats actually safe,

So nobody would have issue with it normally...

 

[Jagare]

Thats because thats actually safe,

So nobody would have issue with it normally...

With the rifle in the rack I may go off for a coffee, outside to talk to a friend or even wander round to the running boar range and shoot a couple of series. Nobody will touch the rifle without asking, and it will still be in the same position when I get back to it.

 

[VSS]

With the rifle in the rack I may go off for a coffee, outside to talk to a friend or even wander round to the running boar range and shoot a couple of series. Nobody will touch the rifle without asking, and it will still be in the same position when I get back to it.

That's how it should be.

 

[trickie]

Our Club shot at Bisley a few times a year, I’m a member of the Bisley shooting Club.
When I shoot with our Club. All Rifles are unbaked/bagged on the firing point (also at our home ranges and Military Ranges - nothing changes 1 safety systems in place it easy to master). All rifles are checked for clear either by tee RO or RSO. YOU WILL be challenged for anything else and possible asked to removed your self and go home.

With the Bisley shooting Club, you bag and unbag on the range, and in the same manner as our club the RSO clears you when you’ve finished. The habit of muzzle waving seems to be growing with the newer shooters, the RSO does address this fully.
I can’t see anything that needs to change.
If you and your club have different systems and they’re enforced and actively maintained, I don’t see an issue there either. The problem seems to be that it’s either new shooters needing a bit more mentoring, or older shooters who Know Best.

The vast majority of shooter I’ve seen and met are sound and do follow the rules

I did 24 years service and shot the 303 from 11years old with the Army Cadets. The rules there were: Simple, Enforced and Maintained

The problem NOT the rules, it’s the people who don’t follow them. There should be a penalty for not following whatever the safety rules are for you and you club

 

[Liveonce]

worth remembering shooting is considered a safe sport, by the isurance industry