I may have positioned myself behind a rifle in the wrong way until now

[Poh]

One thing that we rarely talk about is the effect of seasons and clothes on fit because of the effective change in LoP.

David,

Weight change can also have an effect.

 

[TringSaint]

Interesting thread. But it does beg the question - how much difference does a slightly variable position make when shooting at normal stalking distances?
Out to150m I can’t see a vast amount of difference (unless you are terribly positioned behind the rifle) but if we are talking 300+m then, sure, I can appreciate how a minor amount of maladjustment would result in a significant change in poi.

Key thing is not to rush.
Take you time
Get steady and only then pull the trigger

 

[Heym SR20]

Interesting thread. But it does beg the question - how much difference does a slightly variable position make when shooting at normal stalking distances?
Out to150m I can’t see a vast amount of difference (unless you are terribly positioned behind the rifle) but if we are talking 300+m then, sure, I can appreciate how a minor amount of maladjustment would result in a significant change in poi.

Key thing is not to rush.
Take you time
Get steady and only then pull the trigger

Variation in rifle hold can make a very big difference in point of impact, especially in a rifle that recoils to any degree.

If you are stiff, tense, holding the rifle firmly the rifle will recoil very differently to if you are holding it very gently. The key will be how the muzzle rises and the point in the recoil cycle the muzzle is as the bullet leaves the barrel. You can easily make the bullet fly 6” of target.

Good stock fit really helps. So does technique, and the key, as with all things rifle shooting is consistency.

It’s all very well being able to shoot on the range where you have plenty of time. It’s another thing to shoot well when a buck pops out of the wood.

With novices I make a point when helping them learn to stalk is to pick objects - that little white rock, or a tree stump and tell them its a deer. I want them to first tell me if its safe, to quickly get into a good position and if its safe to dry fire the rifle. You can very quickly see if the muzzle remains on target as they squeeze. Rifle is of course unloaded for such drills. If we have been out for a good while and nothing shootable has appeared it’s a good confidence builder to a shot at such an object.

When hunting you third, fifth or tenth shot really doesn’t matter. What matters is your ability to make a clean first round shot using an improvised and probably far from perfect field position, probably with a heart and lungs still exploding from a steep climb, with an added dose adrenaline from buck fever.

And yes all of above still happens when you have been stalking 30 years and are still learning.

 

[randello88]

Interesting thread. But it does beg the question - how much difference does a slightly variable position make when shooting at normal stalking distances?
Out to150m I can’t see a vast amount of difference (unless you are terribly positioned behind the rifle) but if we are talking 300+m then, sure, I can appreciate how a minor amount of maladjustment would result in a significant change in poi.

Key thing is not to rush.
Take you time
Get steady and only then pull the trigger

Under 230 m on roe deer., basically zero. I can say that after many years and tens of deer in the fridge without misses

Past 230 m or so it could matter much more but all this was born since i started getting interested in longer shots

 

[randello88]

Variation in rifle hold can make a very big difference in point of impact, especially in a rifle that recoils to any degree.

If you are stiff, tense, holding the rifle firmly the rifle will recoil very differently to if you are holding it very gently. The key will be how the muzzle rises and the point in the recoil cycle the muzzle is as the bullet leaves the barrel. You can easily make the bullet fly 6” of target.

Good stock fit really helps. So does technique, and the key, as with all things rifle shooting is consistency.

It’s all very well being able to shoot on the range where you have plenty of time. It’s another thing to shoot well when a buck pops out of the wood.

With novices I make a point when helping them learn to stalk is to pick objects - that little white rock, or a tree stump and tell them its a deer. I want them to first tell me if its safe, to quickly get into a good position and if its safe to dry fire the rifle. You can very quickly see if the muzzle remains on target as they squeeze. Rifle is of course unloaded for such drills. If we have been out for a good while and nothing shootable has appeared it’s a good confidence builder to a shot at such an object.

When hunting you third, fifth or tenth shot really doesn’t matter. What matters is your ability to make a clean first round shot using an improvised and probably far from perfect field position, probably with a heart and lungs still exploding from a steep climb, with an added dose adrenaline from buck fever.

And yes all of above still happens when you have been stalking 30 years and are still learning.

Thanks for the insight. What I observed is that, after some excellent accuracy in the first 5-10 rounds of a range session, groups start to open up significantly (up to more than 1 MOA at 100m), could the neck getting tired be the cause?

More importantly, do you do shooting classes? I am looking for a good one in Europe, just to learn a bit more and be checked by someone with more experience than me (not easy to find good shooter you can rely on to get tips here, most shooters are very bad in the various ranges i visited during the years)

 

[Heym SR20]

Thanks for the insight. What I observed is that, after some excellent accuracy in the first 5-10 rounds of a range session, groups start to open up significantly (up to more than 1 MOA at 100m), could the neck getting tired be the cause?

More importantly, do you do shooting classes? I am looking for a good one in Europe, just to learn a bit more and be checked by someone with more experience than me (not easy to find good shooter you can rely on to get tips here, most shooters are very bad in the various ranges i visited during the years)

Shooting is a muscle memory skill, and like any sport requires many many repetitions to get it correct.

I spent many years in a former life rowing and got to a top level, including rowing with and against others who went on to international glory. At one time I was coached by the gentleman who taught a certain Steve Redgrave how to row. We spent many many hours breaking the stroke into its individual parts and perfecting those. His emphasis was getting the last mm out of each stroke - his view was that this was all “free” speed. In a race there are about 200 strokes, if you can get an extra 10mm per stroke thats 2m over the course of a race - difference between winning and loosing.

With rifle shooting, or for that matter any shooting it’s just the same. Break down the shot into its individual parts.

Rather than just banging away on the range. Break it down.

First look at the target and practice getting your body down and aligned with the rifle so the rifle is naturally aligned with the target. Keep your eyes on the target as you get aligned.

Then do it again. And again.

Your rifle should naturally point at the target. Easiest check - cross hair on target, close eyes, go through your normal breaths and open eyes - cross hair should still be on target.

Then dry fire.

Then repeat, get down behind the rifle, get set up, load and fire one shot.

Then repeat

Once you can shoot a nice little group of three to five shots with each shot starting with you standing and then having to get behind the rifle each time, you know you are beginning to become a good shot.

Treat each shot in a session like it is the first shot, and take plenty of time between shots.

And remember the good shots. Repeat what you did in your mind - remember how you breathed, squeezed the trigger, trigger break and follow through etc. repeat them in your mind. You should have the picture, feel etc in your minds eye of your perfect shot, and just repeat that everytime.

Muscles quickly get tired and performance falls off. Exercise and strength training will help - core muscle is key - planks, squats, pressups all help as well as lots of good stretching. At home have a spot on a wall and just practice aiming the rifle. Use your arms and body, not lots of aids such as bipods. Build that strength so your muscles can hold a rifle through several shot cycles. Then when you go to the range your muscles wont tire as easily.

When it actually come to shooting sessions, less is more. You can currently shoot a good five round group. Take your time and deliver a perfect group. Then stop.

Go away and practice again building up strength and skills etc.

Next time shoot one five round group. Then have a pause / reset etc and shoot another one.

And then build this up. A competitive shooter will shoot perhaps 100 rounds in a match. To have any chance of being in the podium 95 plus of those need to be in the bull even when you are having a bad day.

 

[TringSaint]

Variation in rifle hold can make a very big difference in point of impact, especially in a rifle that recoils to any degree.

If you are stiff, tense, holding the rifle firmly the rifle will recoil very differently to if you are holding it very gently. The key will be how the muzzle rises and the point in the recoil cycle the muzzle is as the bullet leaves the barrel. You can easily make the bullet fly 6” of target.

Good stock fit really helps. So does technique, and the key, as with all things rifle shooting is consistency.

It’s all very well being able to shoot on the range where you have plenty of time. It’s another thing to shoot well when a buck pops out of the wood.

With novices I make a point when helping them learn to stalk is to pick objects - that little white rock, or a tree stump and tell them its a deer. I want them to first tell me if its safe, to quickly get into a good position and if its safe to dry fire the rifle. You can very quickly see if the muzzle remains on target as they squeeze. Rifle is of course unloaded for such drills. If we have been out for a good while and nothing shootable has appeared it’s a good confidence builder to a shot at such an object.

When hunting you third, fifth or tenth shot really doesn’t matter. What matters is your ability to make a clean first round shot using an improvised and probably far from perfect field position, probably with a heart and lungs still exploding from a steep climb, with an added dose adrenaline from buck fever.

And yes all of above still happens when you have been stalking 30 years and are still learning.

All valid points, but for normal stalking distances the variation or impact on POI should still be minimal.

The OP seems determined to shoot for deer from long distance and given this and his previous thread I would recommend that he learns to stalk in closer an shoot them under 200m!

 

[long_range_rob]

Thanks for the insight. What I observed is that, after some excellent accuracy in the first 5-10 rounds of a range session, groups start to open up significantly (up to more than 1 MOA at 100m), could the neck getting tired be the cause?

More importantly, do you do shooting classes? I am looking for a good one in Europe, just to learn a bit more and be checked by someone with more experience than me (not easy to find good shooter you can rely on to get tips here, most shooters are very bad in the various ranges i visited during the years)

Andrew Venables at WMS in wales is a pretty good instructor.

 

[Essexsussex]

I realised how important stock fit is when I got a grs bifrost stock that is fully adjustable. Makes a difference for sure especially as it is a reasonably kicky animal.

 

[Heym SR20]

All valid points, but for normal stalking distances the variation or impact on POI should still be minimal.

The OP seems determined to shoot for deer from long distance and given this and his previous thread I would recommend that he learns to stalk in closer an shoot them under 200m!

Variation at normal stalking distances is minimal with a heavy barreled light recoiling target / varmint type rifle.

A lightweight Kipplauf rifle in a reasonably punchy hunting cartridge - totally different matter. You need a very good consistency to ensure the bullet hits where you aim.

 

[TringSaint]

Variation at normal stalking distances is minimal with a heavy barreled light recoiling target / varmint type rifle.

A lightweight Kipplauf rifle in a reasonably punchy hunting cartridge - totally different matter. You need a very good consistency to ensure the bullet hits where you aim.

One thing I do now that I didn’t when I fist started is that I drop my deer sack if it’s got a carcass in it before shouldering the rifle, esp if I am prone, shooting off a bipod.
Pulled many a shot beforehand simply because the weight on my back was pulling me away from my comfortable position.
Not always possible if shooting off sticks tho, esp if it’s a quick shot - but I do try to settle as best I can before pulling the trigger.

 

[randello88]

Shooting is a muscle memory skill, and like any sport requires many many repetitions to get it correct.

I spent many years in a former life rowing and got to a top level, including rowing with and against others who went on to international glory. At one time I was coached by the gentleman who taught a certain Steve Redgrave how to row. We spent many many hours breaking the stroke into its individual parts and perfecting those. His emphasis was getting the last mm out of each stroke - his view was that this was all “free” speed. In a race there are about 200 strokes, if you can get an extra 10mm per stroke thats 2m over the course of a race - difference between winning and loosing.

With rifle shooting, or for that matter any shooting it’s just the same. Break down the shot into its individual parts.

Rather than just banging away on the range. Break it down.

First look at the target and practice getting your body down and aligned with the rifle so the rifle is naturally aligned with the target. Keep your eyes on the target as you get aligned.

Then do it again. And again.

Your rifle should naturally point at the target. Easiest check - cross hair on target, close eyes, go through your normal breaths and open eyes - cross hair should still be on target.

Then dry fire.

Then repeat, get down behind the rifle, get set up, load and fire one shot.

Then repeat

Once you can shoot a nice little group of three to five shots with each shot starting with you standing and then having to get behind the rifle each time, you know you are beginning to become a good shot.

Treat each shot in a session like it is the first shot, and take plenty of time between shots.

And remember the good shots. Repeat what you did in your mind - remember how you breathed, squeezed the trigger, trigger break and follow through etc. repeat them in your mind. You should have the picture, feel etc in your minds eye of your perfect shot, and just repeat that everytime.

Muscles quickly get tired and performance falls off. Exercise and strength training will help - core muscle is key - planks, squats, pressups all help as well as lots of good stretching. At home have a spot on a wall and just practice aiming the rifle. Use your arms and body, not lots of aids such as bipods. Build that strength so your muscles can hold a rifle through several shot cycles. Then when you go to the range your muscles wont tire as easily.

When it actually come to shooting sessions, less is more. You can currently shoot a good five round group. Take your time and deliver a perfect group. Then stop.

Go away and practice again building up strength and skills etc.

Next time shoot one five round group. Then have a pause / reset etc and shoot another one.

And then build this up. A competitive shooter will shoot perhaps 100 rounds in a match. To have any chance of being in the podium 95 plus of those need to be in the bull even when you are having a bad day.

Great answer. As far as fitness, i am young and fit (for now ahah). I will dry fire more. Until now i had good results on the field by just shooting naturally without thinking a bit. I grew up shooting so probably i got away with that for closer shots. I will train to make my position and shooting more conscious and less instinctive

 

[randello88]

All valid points, but for normal stalking distances the variation or impact on POI should still be minimal.

The OP seems determined to shoot for deer from long distance and given this and his previous thread I would recommend that he learns to stalk in closer an shoot them under 200m!

I am a very good stalker, my hits are in average at less than 100 in the last three years. I got a new district assigned where distances are longer and i enjoy precision shooting other than stalking.

But you can bet i can stalk. I shot one roe at 4 meters, it was literally sleeping. Multiple times i shot them at less than 30 meters, without them being aware. Often i take my shoes off of i know the ground is gonna be noisy. Many Times i crawl and manage to get some good shots at animals very close and alerted. I grew up in the woods chasing animals

Not sure you know me enough to judge my stalking abilities

 

[randello88]

Andrew Venables at WMS in wales is a pretty good instructor.

Cool, how are his classes structured?

 

[randello88]

Variation at normal stalking distances is minimal with a heavy barreled light recoiling target / varmint type rifle.

A lightweight Kipplauf rifle in a reasonably punchy hunting cartridge - totally different matter. You need a very good consistency to ensure the bullet hits where you aim.

That’s true, one time i consciously did a test with a 4 kg 308 shooting 170 grainers. I consciously shot it with inconstent hold as far as my position and strenght/grip on the rifle. Trigger control was good. Groups opened up at 12 cm at 100 meters. Try it, it is eye opening. Even if we don’t notice it, there is a good degree of consistency in any person shooting a rifle at less than 1 MOA 5 shot groups

 

[Scarpa]

I was having a range shooting lesson with my 30-06 and at 250m I was pulling my shots about 3 inches to the right. I was advised to position my thumb centrally so that I was squeezing the trigger back towards it and my POI moved back to central. Little things really do make a difference.

 

[randello88]

I was having a range shooting lesson with my 30-06 and at 250m I was pulling my shots about 3 inches to the right. I was advised to position my thumb centrally so that I was squeezing the trigger back towards it and my POI moved back to central. Little things really do make a difference.

3 inches is a lot but i can see how it could happen, most hunters just say “just be a vette stalker” and they don’t care about shooting well. Their hit percentage is low and they have no clue about why is that. Seen it many times, from people missing roes at 100 m from prone to people hitting fallow deer from 80 meters in a back leg from prone. RIfles were zeroed in both cases, as they say. There is no thing like shooter vs hunter. A good hunter must be a decent shooter at least

Btw scarpa, are you italian too with that name?

 

[Scarpa]

3 inches is a lot but i can see how it could happen, most hunters just say “just be a vette stalker” and they don’t care about shooting well. Their hit percentage is low and they have no clue about why is that. Seen it many times, from people missing roes at 100 m from prone to people hitting fallow deer from 80 meters in a back leg from prone. RIfles were zeroed in both cases, as they say. There is no thing like shooter vs hunter. A good hunter must be a decent shooter at least

Btw scarpa, are you italian too with that name?

I was shooting off sticks so it exaggerated the pull, I'd shot about 50 rounds so was getting a little tired too. The name is a long and old story from 20 years ago, I joined a ski forum and needed a user name, I looked up and I had used a boot box to make a hide for my pet lizard, it had SCARPA on the side so I used that and it's kinda stuck. Im actually a Kiwi with Scouse parents who grew up in Wales and now lives in the Austrian Alps but works in England

 

[TringSaint]

I am a very good stalker, my hits are in average at less than 100 in the last three years. I got a new district assigned where distances are longer and i enjoy precision shooting other than stalking.

But you can bet i can stalk. I shot one roe at 4 meters, it was literally sleeping. Multiple times i shot them at less than 30 meters, without them being aware. Often i take my shoes off of i know the ground is gonna be noisy. Many Times i crawl and manage to get some good shots at animals very close and alerted. I grew up in the woods chasing animals

Not sure you know me enough to judge my stalking abilities

But your posts are always about long distance and supreme accuracy.
Chill out a bit, learn your quarry and shoot accurately.
You seem to be over thinking lots of things.

 

[randello88]

But your posts are always about long distance and supreme accuracy.
Chill out a bit, learn your quarry and shoot accurately.
You seem to be over thinking lots of things.

They are, because that’s where I am less expert so i ask

This morning for example i killed a female roe at 80 m after crawling in the mud and shot her standing offhand!

Maybe i overthink, isn’t any passion a form of overthinking? Maybe you are here only for a practical reason, i am not. I enjoy (over)thinking about my passions and exploring new fields