Refusal to renew vermin control s1 sgc

[andyk]

It’s second hand info but I’m hearing of a lot of people in West Mercia losing s1 shotguns who would appear to have a more robust good reason than most, and who certainly aren’t in the ‘I could use a 3 shot but just fancy the extra firepower’ group.

While I don’t want to draw too much of a conclusion, it’s certainly pointing to West Mercia operating something close to a ban on s1 for vermin.

 

[Heym SR20]

Looking at this from Police licensing perspective, the Police will also have been influenced by the shootings in Sydney where a high capacity shotgun was used to deadly effect.

Lets face it, any shotgun is very deadly on man sized at close range, regardless of cartridge used. Increase size of pellets up maximum sized legal on a shotgun certificate ie .36” or just under 9mm the effective range is more like 30 to 40 yards. And remember that a 12 bore has the same sort of energy as a full bore rifle and whilst those pellets are lighter than a 9mm handgun bullet they are still 9mm in diameter and there are several pellets in a cartridge. Paul Harrel did a good number video tests on the effectiveness of buckshot on his “meat target” which simulates a human or deer body. Below he shows effect of a 20 bore with US No 1 Buck (pellets .30” in diameter) on meat target at 20 yards - and the pellets are going right the way through. With slugs, a shotgun is good to 100m



And the big big difference between a typical double shotgun, or 3 shot semi or pump versus an 8 shot semi is the potential of the damage caused before the shooter needs to reload.

Coming back to the Police only allowing Section 1 shotguns for use on ranges will come to the range / club structure where club officials and other club users overseeing and watching the users. And if they have any concerns over the suitability or mental health they are obliged to raise these.

Whereas most section 1 shotguns being used for vermin control the individual is usually working on his own and being overseen by others as is the case in a club environment.

And if you cannot put forward a viable case for possessing any section 1 firearm then you will loose it.

 

[andyk]

Coming back to the Police only allowing Section 1 shotguns for use on ranges will come to the range / club structure where club officials and other club users overseeing and watching the users. And if they have any concerns over the suitability or mental health they are obliged to raise these.

Whereas most section 1 shotguns being used for vermin control the individual is usually working on his own and being overseen by others as is the case in a club environment.

That may be the view but it’s not borne out in reality. Michael Ryan, Thomas Hamilton and Jake Davison all referenced club/target use.

 

[25 Sharps]

I never stated jack I just put on here my personal experience when your being told they are not issuing them for Vermin and atleast 10 people local have had theirs removed upon renewals even two rfds I know have lost them for that very reason I’ve never been grilled so much over one subject on here as I previously stated it was my variation my choice and nobody else’s I had good reason and need but what is the point of pursuing something when possibly with the way it seems to be going in a few month or years nobody will have them for vermin control it’s the last I’ll say on the subject wish I never bothered inputting

‘They’re not issuing them for vermin’ isn’t a statement?

 

[Heym SR20]

That may be the view but it’s not borne out in reality. Michael Ryan, Thomas Hamilton and Jake Davison all referenced club/target use.

And thats why semi automatic rifles and handguns are banned from everyday shooting. With the cases you mentioned there had been serious raised by their clubs over suitability to hold firearms. Indeed I believe the Dunblane Case he had been refused membership of his club and this was notified to the Police.

 

[25 Sharps]

I never stated jack I just put on here my personal experience when your being told they are not issuing them for Vermin and atleast 10 people local have had theirs removed upon renewals even two rfds I know have lost them for that very reason I’ve never been grilled so much over one subject on here as I previously stated it was my variation my choice and nobody else’s I had good reason and need but what is the point of pursuing something when possibly with the way it seems to be going in a few month or years nobody will have them for vermin control it’s the last I’ll say on the subject wish I never bothered inputting

See below, looks like statement to me!

My reasons were good and justified but I decided to drop it as it seems they are stopping them across the board but as I’ve said before was my variation and my decision and nobody else’s

 

[25 Sharps]

I got a Section 1 shotgun a few years back for shooting squirrels in the woodland on our farm, sensible reason (I thought) you need more that 3 shots, if you fire one into a dray and 3 or more squirrels run out 3 shots will not suffice.

Last year I submitted for a change as the trigger broke and It was cheaper to buy a second hand one at my local shop had that to fix, I resubmitted with the same reasoning.

The FAO contacted me and said that this reason was not acceptable, so I said I also use it for rats when again 3 shots sometimes isn't enough. He said again, no good.

So I asked him what I can site as my reason and he said they want to hear that I will be using it to protect my high value crops from bird damage, I have done a fair bit of pigeon and corvid shooting in my time and never have I felt under gunned with 3 shots.

But hey, they know best right...

That is because the 'good reason' stated in the guidance that they will go by is for avian control.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Sounds great to say but what do you suggest?

Note - my post above isn’t necessarily saying this should go unchallenged, just that some thought should be given to what the FLD/HO will do in 2 or 3 moves time.

Challenge it ask them to show you HO guidance that backs them up , it’s a slippery slope make all the more slippery by stuff like this and folks agreeing to do dsc to get a deer calibre

 

[pumbaa]

Trouble you have there is that the updated HO guidance says the only good reason for a s1 (for quarry) is avian vermin. Yes, you can have AOLQ to let you shoot rabbits, squirrels etc once you have it but the stated reason needs to be avian.

I get that that is there guidance now, I think the point I was trying to make is that in a real world scenario, not one made up by someone at a desk, its juat not a reason in my experience.
But I suppose we shouldn't say that or that will be taken from us too.

 

[Greenmist]

See below, looks like statement to me!

More of an opinion, rather than a statement (in my opinion )

 

[25 Sharps]

More of an opinion, rather than a statement (in my opinion )

I would say it was a statement of an opinion, which still makes it a statement, in my opinion.

 

[Leec6.5]

Speaking from experience of having had a Sec1 shotgun in the past when I was keepering, I personally can’t see the need for a 6 shot shotgun’s, it does nothing a 3 shot can’t do!

 

[Chris Richardson]

Speaking from experience of having had a Sec1 shotgun in the past when I was keepering, I personally can’t see the need for a 6 shot shotgun’s, it does nothing a 3 shot can’t do!

Except 3 more shots available…..when I was keepering I had a 5 shot that I found very handy

 

[Chris Richardson]

Looking at this from Police licensing perspective, the Police will also have been influenced by the shootings in Sydney where a high capacity shotgun was used to deadly effect.

Lets face it, any shotgun is very deadly on man sized at close range, regardless of cartridge used. Increase size of pellets up maximum sized legal on a shotgun certificate ie .36” or just under 9mm the effective range is more like 30 to 40 yards. And remember that a 12 bore has the same sort of energy as a full bore rifle and whilst those pellets are lighter than a 9mm handgun bullet they are still 9mm in diameter and there are several pellets in a cartridge. Paul Harrel did a good number video tests on the effectiveness of buckshot on his “meat target” which simulates a human or deer body. Below he shows effect of a 20 bore with US No 1 Buck (pellets .30” in diameter) on meat target at 20 yards - and the pellets are going right the way through. With slugs, a shotgun is good to 100m



And the big big difference between a typical double shotgun, or 3 shot semi or pump versus an 8 shot semi is the potential of the damage caused before the shooter needs to reload.

Coming back to the Police only allowing Section 1 shotguns for use on ranges will come to the range / club structure where club officials and other club users overseeing and watching the users. And if they have any concerns over the suitability or mental health they are obliged to raise these.

Whereas most section 1 shotguns being used for vermin control the individual is usually working on his own and being overseen by others as is the case in a club environment.

And if you cannot put forward a viable case for possessing any section 1 firearm then you will loose it.

You absolutely love any further restrictions on firearms don’t you?

 

[Tim.243]

Speaking from experience of having had a Sec1 shotgun in the past when I was keepering, I personally can’t see the need for a 6 shot shotgun’s, it does nothing a 3 shot can’t do!

Lee
There was a bollicks post that they needed a high capacity for a flock of pigeons, 2 shots and they feck off lol
a bit like this lol

 

[Leec6.5]

You absolutely love any further restrictions on firearms don’t you?

I ain’t being funny, but it’s down to the road of practicality easy actually needed?

No, it’s not. There’s a whole world of guns in this country that are not needed but people keep finding reasons to have them really we’re only fools to ourselves.

 

[Heym SR20]

You absolutely love any further restrictions on firearms don’t you?

No - I was simply putting it from the Police Perspective.

 

[Chris Richardson]

I ain’t being funny, but it’s down to the road of practicality easy actually needed?

No, it’s not. There’s a whole world of guns in this country that are not needed but people keep finding reasons to have them really we’re only fools to ourselves.

As I say my section 1 shotgun came in very handy

 

[Leec6.5]

As I say my section 1 shotgun came in very handy

I personally found it a plumber and pain in the arse. It did nothing that three shots couldn’t do.

 

[Chris Richardson]

No - I was simply putting it from the Police Perspective.

How about we put it in the perspective of following HO guidelines or would that be too much to ask ?