Lead - EU Reach Meeting/Proposal

[Chris Richardson]

Bit below the belt!

Smoking is a choice not compulsory, any illness related to smoking products self-inflicted, failing that the people who didn’t smoke that were in the same vicinity as a smoker could always have got up and walked away one of life’s choices.

I dont think below the belt in the slightest considering his past business endeavours

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

But surly like the government banning lead for the good of public health the government has a duty of care to ban smoking to protect people from themselves, like now we have a choice not to eat game shot with lead but the government is going to protect us from harm.

But smoking generates millions and millions bullets don’t

 

[Liveonce]

But smoking generates millions and millions bullets don’t

so that makes it ok then……. but you are correct they chose to ignore the health issues in preference to the tax income, not to mention the public outrage if they announced in three years time smoking would be banned.

 

[palmer_mike]

But smoking generates millions and millions bullets don’t

• Tax Revenue: Tobacco duties bring in roughly £6.8–£7 billion per year.
• Total Societal Cost: Smoking costs society in England roughly £43.7 billion annually.
• Public Finance Impact: Smoking costs public finances in England roughly £16.5 billion (including NHS, social care, and related costs), which is more than double the tax collected.
• Productivity Loss: A significant portion of the cost is due to lost productivity (approx. £27.6 billion in England) from smokers becoming ill or dying prematurely.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

so that makes it ok then……. but you are correct they chose to ignore the health issues in preference to the tax income, not to mention the public outrage if they announced in three years time smoking would be banned.

Exactly that, 99.9% of the public don’t give a **** about bullets but there’s a lot of people out there who like nicotine!

I don’t smoke anymore, but I would love a cigarette!

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

• Tax Revenue: Tobacco duties bring in roughly £6.8–£7 billion per year.
• Total Societal Cost: Smoking costs society in England roughly £43.7 billion annually.
• Public Finance Impact: Smoking costs public finances in England roughly £16.5 billion (including NHS, social care, and related costs), which is more than double the tax collected.
• Productivity Loss: A significant portion of the cost is due to lost productivity (approx. £27.6 billion in England) from smokers becoming ill or dying prematurely.

Exactly bullets don’t earn that amount of money in fact they don’t even earn a gnats bollock worth of income tax, the smoking does but it also costs and that is something that will never change

 

[Smellydog]

But smoking generates millions and millions bullets don’t

Hence why I said earlier, hypocrisy.

 

[Liveonce]

Exactly bullets don’t earn that amount of money in fact they don’t even earn a gnats bollock worth of income tax, the smoking does but it also costs and that is something that will never change

until they ban it, which must happen eventually, if I was in government I would ban it tomorrow, how can it be allowed to sell a product that tells you on the packaging it will kill you.

Not even an over ready pheasant shot with lead states that.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I dont think below the belt in the slightest considering his past business endeavours

Everybody’s got skeletons in the cupboards, anybody who denies that is a liar!

How he earned his money is his business how I earn mine is my business and how you earn yours is your business, just because he likes copper and you like lead is neither Hither or either!

But I do wish he would cann it a little bit, Jesus Christ he’s worse than me a few years ago and that’s saying something

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

until they ban it, which must happen eventually, if I was in government I would ban it tomorrow, how can it be allowed to sell a product that tells you on the packaging it will kill you.

Not even an over ready pheasant shot with lead states that.

100% but bootleg tobacco will be no different than cocaine or heroin if you know where to look you’ll always be able to get it!

if they ban it they can’t control it, then the can’t earn any money out of it therefore. In my personal opinion, waste of time.

 

[palmer_mike]

Exactly bullets don’t earn that amount of money in fact they don’t even earn a gnats bollock worth of income tax, the smoking does but it also costs and that is something that will never change

Well I’m pretty sure bullets don’t cost the country
£36 billion pounds per year.
Not sure I understand your definition of tobacco earning the U.K. anything?

 

[jimmer.13]

Bit below the belt!

Smoking is a choice not compulsory, any illness related to smoking products self-inflicted, failing that the people who didn’t smoke that were in the same vicinity as a smoker could always have got up and walked away one of life’s choices.

And using lead ammunition or eating lead shot game doesn’t offer those same choices??????

And let’s not forget smoking has been proven to be harmful and lead ammo hasn’t.

 

[Heym SR20]

Just for the record, I worked in agriculture in Zambia and Zimbabwe for about 18 months in the early 1990’s. Tobacco was just another crop.

At that point in time, everyone smoked, tobacco sponsorship was everywhere, hamlet cigars where advertised on the TV, Camel Trophy sponsored Landrover, multiple different brands sponsored F1. People smoked on trains, planes, in the tube, in the pub, in offices and in hospitals. Menthol cigarettes were sold to clear your lungs.

I was offered a very well paid job with Phillip Morris, but turned it down. I didn’t like the way the industry behaved.

Tobacco smoking other in your own home is now pretty much banned in all public spaces, and has been for 15 plus years. It is banned so that others don’t have to suffer from second hand smoke.

More recently I have been involved with technologies to produce large molecule drugs within tobacco plants that are biosimilar to many very expensive cancer drugs, in particular Herceptin. These are mostly produced in animals cells in very expensive bioreactors. Use plants dramatically reduces the manufacturing costs of such drugs, so making them much more accessible. These are now in clinical trials.

As regards lead, there has long been evidence of how dangerous and harmful to biological processes it actually is. Long ago lead was banned for use in food packaging, as a food ingredient, use in solders for water supplies and in any form of water pipes. Lead pipes in old houses are still there. Like asbestos, this causes difficulties when trying to any works or to sell the property- it all has to be disclosed. Lead is no longer used in household products, paints, industrial processes etc.

There are very strict regulations on lead content in slurries, fertilisers etc etc.

Yet many on SD are just whining that its against their rights that they are being banned from spreading one of the most toxic substances known to man around the countryside. The government has in my view made the correct decision in banning lead from ammunition. There are perfectly viable alternatives that work for 99% of guns in use. If you really want to continue a 100 plus year old damascus barreled shotgun then buy bismuth cartridges and savour each shot. If you are using a muzzle loading rifle, experiment with patched monolithic bullets, or just stick to shooting on an approved rifle range.

By removing lead, shooting is cleaning up its own house and removing one of principle objections of the anti brigade. When you shoot lead cartridges, that lead is no polluting the wider environment and not just yourself.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

And using lead ammunition or eating lead shot game doesn’t offer those same choices??????

And let’s not forget smoking has been proven to be harmful and lead ammo hasn’t.

100%

 

[jimmer.13]

Just for the record, I worked in agriculture in Zambia and Zimbabwe for about 18 months in the early 1990’s. Tobacco was just another crop.

At that point in time, everyone smoked, tobacco sponsorship was everywhere, hamlet cigars where advertised on the TV, Camel Trophy sponsored Landrover, multiple different brands sponsored F1. People smoked on trains, planes, in the tube, in the pub, in offices and in hospitals. Menthol cigarettes were sold to clear your lungs.

I was offered a very well paid job with Phillip Morris, but turned it down. I didn’t like the way the industry behaved.

Tobacco smoking other in your own home is now pretty much banned in all public spaces, and has been for 15 plus years. It is banned so that others don’t have to suffer from second hand smoke.

More recently I have been involved with technologies to produce large molecule drugs within tobacco plants that are biosimilar to many very expensive cancer drugs, in particular Herceptin. These are mostly produced in animals cells in very expensive bioreactors. Use plants dramatically reduces the manufacturing costs of such drugs, so making them much more accessible. These are now in clinical trials.

As regards lead, there has long been evidence of how dangerous and harmful to biological processes it actually is. Long ago lead was banned for use in food packaging, as a food ingredient, use in solders for water supplies and in any form of water pipes. Lead pipes in old houses are still there. Like asbestos, this causes difficulties when trying to any works or to sell the property- it all has to be disclosed. Lead is no longer used in household products, paints, industrial processes etc.

There are very strict regulations on lead content in slurries, fertilisers etc etc.

Yet many on SD are just whining that its against their rights that they are being banned from spreading one of the most toxic substances known to man around the countryside. The government has in my view made the correct decision in banning lead from ammunition. There are perfectly viable alternatives that work for 99% of guns in use. If you really want to continue a 100 plus year old damascus barreled shotgun then buy bismuth cartridges and savour each shot. If you are using a muzzle loading rifle, experiment with patched monolithic bullets, or just stick to shooting on an approved rifle range.

By removing lead, shooting is cleaning up its own house and removing one of principle objections of the anti brigade. When you shoot lead cartridges, that lead is no polluting the wider environment and not just yourself.

And there’s your moral balance…. Right there

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Just for the record, I worked in agriculture in Zambia and Zimbabwe for about 18 months in the early 1990’s. Tobacco was just another crop.

At that point in time, everyone smoked, tobacco sponsorship was everywhere, hamlet cigars where advertised on the TV, Camel Trophy sponsored Landrover, multiple different brands sponsored F1. People smoked on trains, planes, in the tube, in the pub, in offices and in hospitals. Menthol cigarettes were sold to clear your lungs.

I was offered a very well paid job with Phillip Morris, but turned it down. I didn’t like the way the industry behaved.

Tobacco smoking other in your own home is now pretty much banned in all public spaces, and has been for 15 plus years. It is banned so that others don’t have to suffer from second hand smoke.

More recently I have been involved with technologies to produce large molecule drugs within tobacco plants that are biosimilar to many very expensive cancer drugs, in particular Herceptin. These are mostly produced in animals cells in very expensive bioreactors. Use plants dramatically reduces the manufacturing costs of such drugs, so making them much more accessible. These are now in clinical trials.

As regards lead, there has long been evidence of how dangerous and harmful to biological processes it actually is. Long ago lead was banned for use in food packaging, as a food ingredient, use in solders for water supplies and in any form of water pipes. Lead pipes in old houses are still there. Like asbestos, this causes difficulties when trying to any works or to sell the property- it all has to be disclosed. Lead is no longer used in household products, paints, industrial processes etc.

There are very strict regulations on lead content in slurries, fertilisers etc etc.

Yet many on SD are just whining that its against their rights that they are being banned from spreading one of the most toxic substances known to man around the countryside. The government has in my view made the correct decision in banning lead from ammunition. There are perfectly viable alternatives that work for 99% of guns in use. If you really want to continue a 100 plus year old damascus barreled shotgun then buy bismuth cartridges and savour each shot. If you are using a muzzle loading rifle, experiment with patched monolithic bullets, or just stick to shooting on an approved rifle range.

By removing lead, shooting is cleaning up its own house and removing one of principle objections of the anti brigade. When you shoot lead cartridges, that lead is no polluting the wider environment and not just yourself.

Whilst I agree in principle with what you’re saying, but it’s yet to be proven that a lead bullet is harmful!

So in reality, the only way you or I are going to die from a lead bullet, is if we’re stupid enough to be standing in front of the barrel once the trigger is pulled!

That is the only way you can guarantee that you were gonna die from lead poisoning from a bullet.

Please correct me if I’m wrong

 

[hendrix's rifle]

You’re rehashing the same old tripe again while utterly ignoring the evidence and avoiding the real issue.
Lead shot is proven to be toxic to wildlife, thats why the ban is being pursued.

I was replying earlier but decided my bacon took priority over someone that wants to see the end of shooting as we know it.

Theres now a number of replies that entirely refute your point.

Bacon - carcinogenic and proven quite a bad one.
Smoking.
Fumes from vehicles.
Vehicles in general.

All toxic/bad for you. More wildlife is struck by vehicles than die from lead poisoning. Are we banning cars next? No. I wonder why? Maybe its because it doesn't fit with the anti shooting agenda.

Then you turn to pesticides and anything else sprayed/planted in fields. None of it is good! Then you've got the likes of major companies sending toxic substances down various rivers, alongside sewage. That's definitely killed more wildlife than lead poisoning yet they are allowed to continue?

Look at the bigger picture. It ain't because a couple of birds have died due to lead poisoning and that is the real issue.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Exactly that!

This is where I’m gonna stop because last time we got onto this subject, I got banned!

And thats why no one will remember your name

 

[enfieldspares]

Yet even when we are no longer using lead the antis will just move on to a new way to stop live quarry shooting. Eventually there will nothing left that is legal to shoot, with may be the exception of rats.

Oh I think BASC already addressed this. As below in a thread "Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement" started on SD on 10 July 2025.

Of course I suppose I could get some Olympic athletes to come and shoot them as their lead shot (which they'll fire more weight of lead in a day than weight of lead I have, or will ever have, fired in my sixty-eight years of lifetime, ever, from my 9mm Webley No3 Garden Gun) is somehow not the same sort of lead?

I wrote:

What of .22 Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotguns? I shot a rat in my garden two months back with my 9mm Rimfire Webley bolt action. These can't be reloaded and there are NO non-lead options? The number is so few that there should at the very least be a push for these to be exempted.

From Conor O'Gorman

That rat you shot with lead shot came at the expense of how many birds that subsequently ate the lead shot you fired in your garden? Maybe none, maybe some. That is perhaps the bigger picture to bear in mind as regards live quarry shooting where the risks of lead shot dissemination cannot be contained.

 

[timbrayford]

Lead in ammunition: Latest developments

Perhaps we should have stayed in the EU?

If we weren't being ripped off that might have been an option? Ps - just in case you were wondering 1975 was the year that the UK had a referendum on continuing EEC (EU) membership!