When is it okay to sleeve a Rook rifle?

[Blaser K77]

Yes I know, it’s a “how long is a string” kind of question, but I ask anyway.

Been interested in Rook rifles for a long time but they are scarce and hard to find in Sweden where I live or any of the Scandinavian or Nordic countries.

Some 20 years ago I read an article by a Swedish gentleman who sleeved in a 6x70R barrel into his oktagonal barrel of his side lever H&H and I have been hooked (rooked?) ever since.

But, when is it okay to pursue such a thing and when is it not?

The very last thing I want to do is to destroy a rare one.

Thanks!

 

[Heym SR20]

Yes I know, it’s a “how long is a string” kind of question, but I ask anyway.

Been interested in Rook rifles for a long time but they are scarce and hard to find in Sweden where I live or any of the Scandinavian or Nordic countries.

Some 20 years ago I read an article by a Swedish gentleman who sleeved in a 6x70R barrel into his oktagonal barrel of his side lever H&H and I have been hooked (rooked?) ever since.

But, when is it okay to pursue such a thing and when is it not?

The very last thing I want to do is to destroy a rare one.

Thanks!

I have sleeved an old rook rifle. Mine, like many others had the rifling bored out to make them into 410’s. I see absolutely no issue in taking one of these and giving it a new lease of life.

Where it is not OK is to take a very nice and clean Rook Rifle that is still in good original condition with its bore having crisp rifling and start messing with that.

If you have a look in the holts auction and elsewhere you will often find rook rifles bored to 410. Lothar Walther make barrels with a 10 and 12mm outside diameter for the very purpose of sleeving such barrels. Modern epoxies bond them in very well.

My little project

Thread 'Rebirth of a Rook Rifle'

Mar 14, 2023

This project has been a good while in gestation. Indeed from early 2018. A very good, now sadly late, RFD friend took a number of guns in as part of an estate.

Amongst them was a tired and a little battered .410, with the Alex Martin name on the top rib. It was grubby and a bit rusty. Forend stuck on and in need of some love. So I went and had a look.



It might be a 410, but certainly wasn’t built as a 410. 28” octagonal barrel, rifle front sight, a wedge on top rib where a rear sight had been. It was an old rook rifle that at some point had had the rifling removed.

• Heym SR20
• Replies: 94
• Forum: Cleaning, Gunsmithing and Equipment Care

• 

It has rather grown arms and legs in that the action was quite loose, so had to learn to rejoint a break action. The main spring is also pretty weak, giving quite a light primer strike. This is a pain as the rifle primer flows a little back into the firing pin hole - there is not sufficient pressure on the pin to prevent it being pushed back by the primer. I will either have to retemper the spring, or more likely make a new one.

 

[SpikeD]

In the UK a lot of Rook rifles were converted to .410" shotguns after the 1968 legislation, it seems the Police weren't keen on some of the calibers. An anecdote from a friend of mine who had a .380" was told ".380" that's bigger than .303" why would you want something that powerful for rabbits? We'll give you authority for a .22"LR" So many were bored out and put on to the much less restictive shtgun certificate. Unfortunately many had their octagonal barrels rounded for most of the barrel length which ruins the aesthetic. However a few can still be found with the full octagonal and even the original sights but still in .410" and they don't tend to be that expensive.

With the upcomming lead ban they may become even cheaper unless someone comes up with a cost effective no lead .410" loading. So peruse the auctions, Holts, Southams or on the saleroom. You might acquire one for minimal outlay even with import and shipping. Remember that all of the rook rifles were pretty much made in Birmingham and bought as either completed actions or as almost finished, the local / London gunmaker just put their finish and name on them so you can pick up a near identical one from a lesser known maker for a fraction of the same rifle with a big London name on it and as it's been butchered already it's a guilt free trip. Here's an exmple Unnamed.410 hammer action shotgun converted from a .320 rook rifle, with chequered semi-pis...

 

[Heym SR20]

In the UK a lot of Rook rifles were converted to .410" shotguns after the 1968 legislation, it seems the Police weren't keen on some of the calibers. An anecdote from a friend of mine who had a .380" was told ".380" that's bigger than .303" why would you want something that powerful for rabbits? We'll give you authority for a .22"LR" So many were bored out and put on to the much less restictive shtgun certificate. Unfortunately many had their octagonal barrels rounded for most of the barrel length which ruins the aesthetic. However a few can still be found with the full octagonal and even the original sights but still in .410" and they don't tend to be that expensive.

With the upcomming lead ban they may become even cheaper unless someone comes up with a cost effective no lead .410" loading. So peruse the auctions, Holts, Southams or on the saleroom. You might acquire one for minimal outlay even with import and shipping. Remember that all of the rook rifles were pretty much made in Birmingham and bought as either completed actions or as almost finished, the local / London gunmaker just put their finish and name on them so you can pick up a near identical one from a lesser known maker for a fraction of the same rifle with a big London name on it and as it's been butchered already it's a guilt free trip. Here's an exmple Unnamed.410 hammer action shotgun converted from a .320 rook rifle, with chequered semi-pis...

I have converted mine to 22 Hornet. I have worked up a load using a Fox 40gn Tipless bullet - all copper - over a charge of N110. With the open sights and a fine bead that I struggle to see I am getting 2 to 3” groups at 50 yards. I am sure with better younger eyes or a wee scope it will do better than that.

 

[enfieldspares]

I remember buying a Westley Richards .300 Sherwood from Powell's on Carrs Lane, Birmingham when these were still s1. It cost £150. Then they came off s1 a decade later and the price then quadrupled. .300 Sherwood was of course a park deer rifle calibre firing a 140 grain bullet at about 1,400 fps. Similar energy with better down range trajectory to .357 Magnum.

 

[Blaser K77]

Thanks guys!

And thanks for the link to the unnamed.410!

That’s the type of model I want so would fit me well. And the wood doesn’t look half bad either so maybe worth looking into?

I will try to not bugger up a pristine H&H or similar but we’ll see what I can find first. And I’ll see if I can find the article for your viewing pleasure. It used to be available online but have lost the link.

Since we can not legally hunt with black powder rifles in Sweden I can’t get a license directly for a Rook so must first find a smith willing to do the job and transfer the rifle to him. A bit tedious, I know.

I’ll post here when I have found smith and what I want.

All the best!

Jim

 

[HistoricBore]

Hi Jim,

Bear in mind that the actions and iron used in making Victorian rook rifles will not be suitable for modern high pressure cartridges. One good choice is the Winchester 32-20 round, with a 115 grain lead bullet at 1200 fps velocity. Modest pressure but three times the energy of a .22lr.
Many rook rifles were converted to .410 when the British brought in the Firearms Act in 1920 to 'solve' the Irish war problem.....

HB

 

[Blaser K77]

Hi Jim,

Bear in mind that the actions and iron used in making Victorian rook rifles will not be suitable for modern high pressure cartridges. One good choice is the Winchester 32-20 round, with a 115 grain lead bullet at 1200 fps velocity. Modest pressure but three times the energy of a .22lr.
Many rook rifles were converted to .410 when the British brought in the Firearms Act in 1920 to 'solve' the Irish war problem.....

HB

Thanks! Yes I am aware of that but the 6x70r was made for old break open German rifles to begin with so low pressures from the start.

But .32-20 is most definitely an option but 6x70R is a more beautiful cartridge.

IMHO!

Jim

 

[HistoricBore]

... except that it will be too long to fit in any Martini-actioned Rook rifle...
I shall have to look up the 6 x 70R. Almost all the true Rook rifle calibres were sub-sonic, if one was a purist or pedant.

HB

 

[Blaser K77]

I am after a rook with a hammer, like the one in the link above and think 6x70R is great but hard to find casings for, not mention ammo.

Krieghoff started making this caliber with break open rifles in mind, especially to use with removable barrels. Einstecklauf in Teutonic tongue.

Here’s an article if interested in 6x70R:

6x70mmR: A 6mm Cartridge Like No Other — Ron Spomer Outdoors

Historically, rifle cartridges that launch 6mm diameter bullets have not been particularly popular for a long time. Okay, the .243 Winchester from 1955 is a very popular chambering for deer rifles both in North America and Europe. But it’s the exception to the rule. No other .243/6mm cartridge is ne

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

 

[HistoricBore]

So THAT is why my reference books do not list it. As it says at the end, a niche cartridge. Drillings are rare in Britain.

Good luck with the project.

HB