Head and neck shots with lead ammunition

[Buchan]

The bits immediately surrounding the wound channel, which are discarded.

I'd agree that the study would have been strengthened by taking small samples at greater distances from the wound channel such as 16cm (being a distance that contains 95% of lead fragments established by this study: https://doi.org/10.1007/s44187-023-00052-w. However the authors point out that they were limited by cost and availability of the machine.
I take your point that one would discard this tissue, but the second study on grouse breast muscle (which would normally be eaten) had no whole shot in it yet had the microparticles.

To me this quite straight forward study adds data. It is known lead scatters, this paper confirms that there are even smaller particles in the meat, not a surprise, but now it has been confirmed. And the smaller the particle the greater the bioavailability of the lead.

 

[andyk]

I don’t really doubt that lead ammunition has the potential for negative health effects, and the focus on trying to find examples of death from acute lead poisoning is a bit of a red herring - the concern is really about prolonged exposure to sub-lethal amounts and what that may do to overall health, e.g. increased risk of cancers etc.

Nonetheless, I do still think this is being pushed primarily as an attack on shooting. Not by everyone who promotes it and in some cases only in the paternalistic way of ‘nanny state’ advocates.

My reason for believing that is because there are plenty of other things with proven negative health outcomes, think ultra processed foods, alcohol, cured meats, refined sugar etc that are considered matters of personal choice.

While I do think regular eating of lead shot meat likely will increase the risk of negative health outcomes, it’s (a) unproven, and (b) quite probably less severe than many of the ‘personal choices’ that no-one seeks to regulate out of existence.

 

[Apthorpe]

I'd agree that the study would have been strengthened by taking small samples at greater distances from the wound channel such as 16cm (being a distance that contains 95% of lead fragments established by this study: https://doi.org/10.1007/s44187-023-00052-w. However the authors point out that they were limited by cost and availability of the machine.

Agreed, so why not sample at such a distance? By making the choice to sample where you kmow you're going to find lots of lead, one is pre-emptively biasing the study, exacerbating that by selecting a carcase where the bullet had struck bone.
Given that they wanted to make a point about lead contamination In food.I would consider an independent study would select a tissue sample which is normally used as food.

I take your point that one would discard this tissue, but the second study on grouse breast muscle (which would normally be eaten) had no whole shot in it yet had the microparticles.

Agreed...although very few.

To me this quite straight forward study adds data.

I agree that it adds data, but the data is not practically useful since it does not add data on where the even smaller particles extend to. Whether something adds data is not relevant without having examined what the limits and quality of the data are. In this case, the data added tells us that a piece of tissue one would discards because it is contaminated, is contaminated with smaller pieces as well. That is all. The comparison with food safety limits is otiose.

It is known lead scatters, this paper confirms that there are even smaller particles in the meat, not a surprise, but now it has been confirmed. And the smaller the particle the greater the bioavailability of the lead.

Indeed, i understand all the above, however what is important for rifle users (and this thread) is to understand the extent to which these smaller (hitherto undetectable) particles extend beyond the wound area into the tissue which you would not discard.

 

[Buchan]

there you go question answered with no faff

Yes, one question in support of the pro-lead argument, 5 in support of the lead is bad argument!

 

[Buchan]

Indeed, i understand all the above, however what is important for rifle users (and this thread) is to understand the extent to which these smaller (hitherto undetectable) particles extend beyond the wound area into the tissue which you would not discard

I think the smaller particles would not travel as far - less momentum. So in a way the study shows that meat is more contaminated than we realise, because of micro fragments. The photos are of a red calf I shot - poorly, as you can just see the lead in the lumbar region (I made a right mess of wind and distance). It got a second shot low neck as that was all I could see. You can see lead fragments into some of the shoulder meat which on cutting had no visible bruising. We did the CT, just because it's cool

 

[Mike1979]

I appreciate all the science but ultimately we will be made to shoot with non toxic sooner or later whether we like it or not. For me that is unfortunately the end of the argument.

I would like to point out that eating game shot with lead does not and has not been a cause for concern for me but that is a personal viewpoint.

 

[Twodogs]

A quick internet search reveals many sites stating that copper, an essential mineral for body function, in excess, is indeed harmful to the point it can prove fatal.
Rightly or wrongly the push is for lead alternatives landing squarely at the feet of copper.
Is anyone aware of any studies that would prove/suggest that copper shot game can lead to copper toxicity or not as the case may be?

 

[andyk]

A quick internet search reveals many sites stating that copper, an essential mineral for body function, in excess, is indeed harmful to the point it can prove fatal.
Rightly or wrongly the push is for lead alternatives landing squarely at the feet of copper.
Is anyone aware of any studies that would prove/suggest that copper shot game can lead to copper toxicity or not as the case may be?

Surely all that would prove is we shouldn’t shoot with anything, given 30-40% of lead core rifle bullets are copper?

 

[Buchan]

A quick internet search reveals many sites stating that copper, an essential mineral for body function, in excess, is indeed harmful to the point it can prove fatal.
Rightly or wrongly the push is for lead alternatives landing squarely at the feet of copper.
Is anyone aware of any studies that would prove/suggest that copper shot game can lead to copper toxicity or not as the case may be?

Copper is an essential element, it's part of a number of enzyme pathways so organisms need it. Copper toxicity exists and can be a problem for cattle and especially sheep. The toxicity usually comes from excess copper salts in the diet. I've done a google scholar search and can't find anything (quick search)
So, there might be a pathway of copper fragments, although copper bullets don't fragment as much

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

So Ive read all this AGAIN and we still come to the same boring point - no one has died from the consumption of lead shot game!

So really it’s another pointless thread with people spouting the same old, same old.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

So Ive read all this AGAIN and we still come to the same boring point - no one has died from the consumption of lead shot game!

So really it’s another pointless thread with people spouting the same old, same old.

You need to die to have basic physiology and chemistry explained?

I've never been hit by lightning, but I don't need to experience it first hand to know its going to **** up my day
arguing that "No-one died" sounds like a Steve Coogan sketch!

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

"There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects."

Literally 1000's of peer reviewed scientific papers detailing the toxic and delbilitating effect of lead n the human body:

Blood lead concentration after a shotgun accident - PMC

In an accidental shooting, a man in his late forties was hit in his left shoulder region by about 60 lead pellets from a shotgun. He had injuries to the vessels, the clavicle, muscles, and nerves, with total paralysis of the left arm due to axonal ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Difference in concentration of lead (Pb) in meat from pheasants killed using lead and iron (Fe) shotgun ammunition

The use of lead shotgun ammunition for hunting has been banned in a few jurisdictions and habitats, principally to protect wild birds from poisoning b…

www.sciencedirect.com

Lead poisoning due to bullets lodged in the human body - PMC

With the increased violence and use of firearms in Colombia, we may see more cases of lead poisoning in our environment, and must be prepared to diagnose and treat them. Subtle signs and symptoms as unexplained anemia, gastro-intestinal discomfort ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Lead poisoning: Spot symptoms and limit exposure-Lead poisoning - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic

Learn about lead poisoning symptoms and treatment of lead exposure in children and adults. Explore ways to keep your kids safe from lead exposure.

www.mayoclinic.org

Lead toxicity: a review - PMC

Lead toxicity is an important environmental disease and its effects on the human body are devastating. There is almost no function in the human body which is not affected by lead toxicity. Though in countries like US and Canada the use of lead has ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Bioaccumulation of lead (Pb) and its effects on human: A review

Lead is a prevalent heavy metal that pollutes the environment and accumulates in the human body via absorption, bioavailability, bioconcentration, and…

www.sciencedirect.com

7 things to know about lead exposure

Key findings from a groundbreaking report on lead exposure and its effects on children

www.unicef.org

As I say in every presentation I have ever done on the move to lead free ammunition for food production....
"One of the first signs of lead poisoning is diminished brain capacity"....

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

You need to die to have basic physiology and chemistry explained?

I've never been hit by lightning, but I don't need to experience it first hand to know its going to **** up my day
arguing that "No-one died" sounds like a Steve Coogan sketch!

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

"There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects."

Literally 1000's of peer reviewed scientific papers detailing the toxic and delbilitating effect of lead n the human body:

Blood lead concentration after a shotgun accident - PMC

In an accidental shooting, a man in his late forties was hit in his left shoulder region by about 60 lead pellets from a shotgun. He had injuries to the vessels, the clavicle, muscles, and nerves, with total paralysis of the left arm due to axonal ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Difference in concentration of lead (Pb) in meat from pheasants killed using lead and iron (Fe) shotgun ammunition

The use of lead shotgun ammunition for hunting has been banned in a few jurisdictions and habitats, principally to protect wild birds from poisoning b…

www.sciencedirect.com

Lead poisoning due to bullets lodged in the human body - PMC

With the increased violence and use of firearms in Colombia, we may see more cases of lead poisoning in our environment, and must be prepared to diagnose and treat them. Subtle signs and symptoms as unexplained anemia, gastro-intestinal discomfort ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Lead poisoning: Spot symptoms and limit exposure-Lead poisoning - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic

Learn about lead poisoning symptoms and treatment of lead exposure in children and adults. Explore ways to keep your kids safe from lead exposure.

www.mayoclinic.org

Lead toxicity: a review - PMC

Lead toxicity is an important environmental disease and its effects on the human body are devastating. There is almost no function in the human body which is not affected by lead toxicity. Though in countries like US and Canada the use of lead has ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Bioaccumulation of lead (Pb) and its effects on human: A review

Lead is a prevalent heavy metal that pollutes the environment and accumulates in the human body via absorption, bioavailability, bioconcentration, and…

www.sciencedirect.com

7 things to know about lead exposure

Key findings from a groundbreaking report on lead exposure and its effects on children

www.unicef.org

As I say in every presentation I have ever done on the move to lead free ammunition for food production....
"One of the first signs of lead poisoning is diminished brain capacity"....

I’ve used copper long before it was even readily available in the UK, used to buy Barnes ttsx from cliffs gunsmithing in Utah, you don’t have to preach to me, about the pro’s and cons I’ve probably been using it longer than you!

But I loaded it and used it because I wanted to not because I’m being told to

 

[cjm1066]

Ingesting enough lead to be immediately fatal is perhaps hard to do.

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

The WHO article suggests many deaths to lead.

Other views will be posted shortly

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

I’ve used copper long before it was even readily available in the UK, used to buy Barnes ttsx from cliffs gunsmithing in Utah, you don’t have to preach to me, about the pro’s and cons I’ve probably been using it longer than you!

But I loaded it and used it because I wanted to not because I’m being told to

No preaching

Your post implies you dispute the impact of lead on the human body
Sadly people read that and use the "I've been eating game all my life and I am still alive" argument.

Far too many people dispute the efficacy, availibility, accuracy, terminal effect based on "T'internet" mainly because they dont like to be told they need change or use something different.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

No preaching Your post implies you dispute the impact of lead on the human body Sadly people read that and use the "I've been eating game all my life and I am still alive" argument. Far too many people dispute the efficacy, availibility, accuracy, terminal effect based on "T'internet" mainly because they dont like to be told they need change or use something different.

I can defunct nearly all the myths about copper, and their performance!

I have absolutely no problem with copper, it’s the fact that I’m being told what I can and what I cannot do that’s what I don’t like!

It’s not been a problem for the last hundred years. Can’t see why it’s a problem now.

 

[shakey jake]

I can defunct nearly all the myths about copper, and their performance!

I have absolutely no problem with copper, it’s the fact that I’m being told what I can and what I cannot do that’s what I don’t like!

It’s not been a problem for the last hundred years. Can’t see why it’s a problem now.

But you tell people not to head shoot deer when you take them out.
Asbestos wasnt a problem till people found out it was.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

But you tell people not to head shoot deer when you take them out.
Asbestos wasnt a problem till people found out it was.

Nope do I hell!

I’ve never told a client to shoot a Deer in the head. I don’t even do it myself.

It’s pin shoulders or don’t pull the trigger!

And if the client doesn’t like that, they drove in the gate. They can soon drive back out of it and I’ll go back to bed.

 

[shakey jake]

Nope do I hell!

I’ve never told a client to shoot a Deer in the head. I don’t even do it myself.

It’s pin shoulders or don’t pull the trigger!

And if the client doesn’t like that, they drove in the gate. They can soon drive back out of it and I’ll go back to bed.

Can you read my post agian please

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Can you read my post agian please

Ahhh apologies miss read, correct it’s pin shoulders, lead or copper I’m not racist

 

[shakey jake]

Ahhh apologies miss read, correct it’s pin shoulders, lead or copper I’m not racist

So you are happy to tell people what to do because you see a risk