DSC2 - Wild vs. Park Debate

[Sharpie]

Isn't the whole idea of the Deer Stalking Certificate L2 that the candidate should demonstrate competence and knowledge to the AW and not be tutored through the stalking, identification, shot, etc. etc. ?

Not really.

The AW handbook says (page 8):

A candidate cannot “fail” DSC2. If they have not demonstrated the required level of
competence, you explain why, do not sign off the associated PCs,and then remind the
candidate that they can repeat the specific PC assessment at some time in the future.
Provided that it is under assessment conditions the PC could be repeated immediately.

Thats not exactly tutoring, but maybe "maximizing opportunities for witnessing" to use DSC vernacular.

 

[sikadog]

There are an awfull lot of people on this site beating Mike from Jelen with a large stick.
I have known Mike for a lot of years I did my DSC 2 with Mike before he ran Jelen.
I went on a weekend 2 day stalking trip with him when he ran a company called Holiwel Deer management I went on the off chance because I thought the man knew what he was talking about.
Mike told me he could probably get me through my DSC2 in a weekend if I knew what I was doing ( This was in 2001 ).
Over the weekend I shot 7 Roe and completed my DSC2.
So give the man a break he probably knows more about Deer than a lot of (So Called Pro's ) on here.

 

[Virbius]

Isn't the whole idea of the Deer Stalking Certificate L2 that the candidate should demonstrate competence and knowledge to the AW and not be tutored through the stalking, identification, shot, etc. etc. ? I'm sure I've read on here about AWs sending candidates on their way for the day if they fail aspects of the process in a major way."

The DSC2 guidance notes is clear that the AW is a witness and a witness only - and if guidance and tutoring is required then a candidate cannot be passed. The 'stalking' element is only one element of each ICR. As anyone who has seen the DSC2 Candidate Portfolio, each ICR has 4 elements - 3 of these are the process and skill shown AFTER the deer has been shot, so the candidate can show competence whether that deer has been culled in the 'wild' or within a captive area. If the AW and assessor do not believe that sufficient competence has been shown or that the location ro environment does not show adequate competence in element 1, then the AW or Assessor should not pass the candidate.

Please tell me where the REAL problem with what Jelen offer? It is not Jelen that could ultimately be 'de-valuing DSC2', but surely AW or Assessors who may sign off inapropriatley in that environment?

I wonder - are the same people who are denigrating a process of people getting qualified for the DSC the same in another thread who are saying that unless you are a trained RCO you should not have a FAC? You cannot have it both ways - either embrace people who are providing whatever training in whatever format to meet certian criteria or in whatever environment, whether vocational or classroom/study based, or not.

 

[Double four]

Christ sake they will be calling the sd the squabble directory soon ! i come on here to learn about deer not politics.
I can see it pains people who have had to put them self out more financially and with taken time to gain the qualification, but if it helps you can sleep better at night in your mind knowing you have done it the right way.
On the flip side there are other people who may be constricted by time /work ties syndiates etc who wish to fast track this qualification, its only the same as any fast track driving or other ft qualification course.
Jellen has seen a opening in the market and gone for it which to me where deer are concerned everybody seems to jump on the band waggon.
There are numerous training vids online testing stalking schools pre courses for courses you name it if it has deer stamped on it then it equates to £ !
Just look at the amount of pro guides popping up on here as trade members, more and more people have cottoned on to a fast expanding market and who can blame them everybody has to make a living.
Im going to register for my ds2 more than likely doing it the traditional way, i dont give a monkey's what other people do and how fast they get it thats their buisness and up to them.
I keep an open mind and can see both sides , if i was in a good syndicate that required a pass within a year or out i suppose i would be on the phone to jellen quick sharp. DF

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Too many people misunderstand level 2 and what someone has to do to achieve it. You do not have to drive as a learner for 20 months to 'qualify' to take your driving test and opinionated ideas about what a candidate 'should do' before attempting assessment are not really relevent. The aw's themselves are the best people to work with candidates and provide training where needed. Cost is also not relevent in terms of 'the qualification' and what it should or should not cost has no baring on what a candidate needs to do to achieve DMQ Level 2.

The FACTS are for a candidate to achieve this qualification:

A candidate will stalk, cull, gralloch, extract and transfer to suitable storage 3 deer showing practical working skills in the shooting of deer while meeting current standards for the process at each stage. During this process the candidate will demonstrate knowledge and understanding through PC (Performance Criteria) questions asked by the witness and the observations made during assessment. The candidate will be assessed without support from the assessor although training may be given between periods of assessment.

In Each ICR (Individual Cull Record) the candidate and witness will write their account of the stalk and the PC's discussed will be recorded as per the criteria of an individual ICR. This may further support the candidates knowledge, understanding and ability. More than 3 deer culls may be used to satisfy the criteria of the ICR's

Once the candidate portfolio is completed it can be sent off for checking and then through the assessors and verifiers etc before being passed or returned to the candidate for remediation.

I personally find that in most of the witnessing I do there are lots of natural breaks when stalking to apply a couple of PC's and pass on some handy tips. The most common being use your bins more and sweep them all round and not just in the direction of travel. If a candidate though is a bit hopeless I will though try and get the guy a beast and switch from assessment to training. AW's are generally people who want to get a deer rather than walk around the countryside for hours with no hopers. All the AW's I know balance there role to work in the best interests of the candidate and if that means training all day then that's what it ends up as.

 

[finnbear270]

So Jelen are getting it in the neck again, seems its now become a crime to run a business, personally don't see a problem provided all the criteria is met after all its the assessor that has the say on whether to grant level 2 or not
not Jelen nor the AW's he uses.
Boggy, made me chuckle having got this far reading from the top,....Neck shot!
I am sure there must be a demand for this service otherwise they would not be providing it.


This is another one of those threads that brings out the worst in SD, of late there seems to be an element that will bash the pros at every opportunity.

As a pro I am in lucky position where I don't need to advertise but if I did I would be very wary of advertising on here.

I have no nor have I ever had any connection with Jelen, but as a pro comments like ripping of the system to make money anger me, all Jelen has done is offer a service if you don't like it, I don't think you need me to tell you what to do.

By the way Jelen is certainly not the first to use park deer for level 2

Boggy, you made I larf!! (getting it in the neck)!

 

[finnbear270]

I took my test over 20 years ago, it was a Wednesday afternoon the streets were deserted I hardly saw another car on the road. My sister took hers on a Friday the roads were busy the schools were coming out, the factories were coming out. My point is the test wasn't equal so is my pass of lesser value because the roads were quiet.

At the risk of digression, I was having two weeks refresher for class one trucks in 1986, A youngish lad turned up on a moped wearing 'L' plates, he was in the number two passenger seat on the artic with me, two weeks later he was a fully licensed driver in all classes. ..............

 

[bobt]

But he passed, therefore he showed competance?

 

[casper]

But he passed, therefore he showed competance?

Exactly, if he hadn't shown competence he wouldn't pass. Likewise someone shooting and gralloching a park deer still has to attain the same level of competence as someone handling a wild deer.

 

[Sharpie]

I've been considering this offer seriously, I do have an open mind, and I think it is a useful option which has merit.

ISTM that, of the 27 performance criteria required to be demonstrated per cull, all but one could definitely be satisfied during an intensive programme such as is offered. Thats at least 96% of the content. The intensive approach may even deliver superior quality and consistency of witnessing.

The only uncertainty seems to be whether PC 1.5 can be completely satisfied three times by park culls. That is the nub of the concern, and without any knowledge of the way the culls will be organised it is not reasonable to have an opinion.

I would have liked to have been able to accept ytene's offer to complete one such cull and afterwards would have been pleased to relate the experience in the Articles and Writeups section, as I have done with some previous outings.

Although it is not the preferred method, DMQ allow it, in certain circumstances. Will they routinely allow it three times, with no other supporting evidence ?

Whilst we have heard varying opinions from a number of AWs, some strongly against it, it is for the Assessors and upwards to decide.

DMQ rely on eight Accredited Assessment Centres to administer the award. Each has its own team of Assessors and Independent Verifiers, so thats potentially a lot of serious people who may scrutinise this method, when they receive candidate's portfolios.

The provider has a pool of staff who are registered as AWs in their own right, and who are confident to sign off park culls, in quantity.

That says to me that all involved must be confident that they are acting correctly within the letter and the spirit of the rules.

 

[stone]

Stone ,I think the driving force for Level 2 comes from the candidates after all it is a voluntary scheme at the moment...if an employer insists on it that is different to a stalker that needs it to take a lease etc. no system is perfect..but the German system for example is very stringent as is the Swedish and others...the candidates can EITHER take their stalks in the normal stalking environment or choose to do a park session with Jelen/or other providers as long as the PCs are fulfilled it is not an issue...if anyone thinks a DSC2 park cull is easy I will personally pay for that person to do one, on the condition that a proper stalk is performed and the PCs are fulfilled including the gralloch..there are a lot of armchair experts in stalking...

Ytene
I would be more than happy to take up your offer
But I would not put you out of pocket to proove it
I pay my own way and always hav
I am more than capable of walking into any park and choosing a suitable cull beast myself and also capable of culling it
But my question is
Are you happy to sign off a candidate that has a beast shown to them??

 

[Sharpie]

The DSC2 guidance notes is clear that the AW is a witness and a witness only - and if guidance and tutoring is required then a candidate cannot be passed.

It isn't as clear cut as you make out. There is "wiggle room" and I would hope any AW would do their best to make the most of it for me.

See my post #101, also study page 10 of the handbook:

"As your role is to witness the candidate, you must not offer or provide any training or guidance during the witnessing phase of the stalk or subsequent handling of carcasses, nor should you lead the candidate in any way. It is acceptable however to halt an witnessing, demonstrate a skill to the candidate or allow them to practice it, then resume witnessing and have the candidate repeat the demonstration of that skill under witnessing
conditions."

 

[stone]

It's all about jealousy, ........ and the desire by a small minority to discredit professional companies.

Nothing to do with jealousy at all
I find it funny that you can every tues/weds guarantee the cull beasts put in front of a potential L2 candidate
When I took my L2 witnessed stalks I had to go out and find the cull beasts myself on the day the AW was available
You are already stating these beasts will be provided and on exact days also
Not to do with competence
I hav never be able to guarantee a cull beast on any day
Let alone a chosen one , on a chosen day
And you base this on
Only if you are capable of inspection is all that is needed
Your words not mine
Now
I do ask
Your unique DSCL2I
Is not on the DMQ website no matter where I look
Is this a new way to gain L2 or just a gimmick to make money from it
And one final question
How is your take of L2 candidates that can proove their worth on provided selected park culls only??
Because the way I see it from your very own wording
Park deer that are not actually easy are being put into a lime light
And those people that are running fair chase parks may now suffer due to your so called unique initative and drive to make money from it

 

[2130martin]

It's all about jealousy, ........ and the desire by a small minority to discredit professional companies.

I am grateful that - once again - the 'bandwagoners' have gained us an immense amount of coverage for our DSCL2i, which is simply an offer to those who feel they are experienced enough, to condense their three culls in only two days. It is NOT offering a short-cut through this important process. It is NOT ripping off the system. It is NOT devaluing the standard. It is NOT guaranteeing that clients will achieve the standards required by DMQ (thats down to the clients themselves).

However, it IS a fair offer at reasonable cost. What's all the fuss about??

It seems the fuss is a result of a handful of people who resent companies like ours getting off our backsides - providing a fair opportunity for clients who wish to get on and obtain their DSCL2 in a shorter time - and making part of a living from it!!! Mine, and my family's living comes from the services our company offers to the wild, park and farmed deer sectors.

It would be nice to 'play' at it whilst my living came from something else such as a driving school - but nope, some of us provide training and deer management as a job.

My sincere thanks to those who have already taken up this excellent opportunity, and those who have supported Jelen on this site.

To the others - understand that we make a living from offering DSCL2i, and many other training opportunities and services to a highly professional standard, at reasonable price ................... GET OVER IT GUYS!!!!!!

Regards,

Good for you

 

[Jelendeer]

Nothing to do with jealousy at all
I find it funny that you can every tues/weds guarantee the cull beasts put in front of a potential L2 candidate
When I took my L2 witnessed stalks I had to go out and find the cull beasts myself on the day the AW was available
You are already stating these beasts will be provided and on exact days also
Not to do with competence
I hav never be able to guarantee a cull beast on any day
Let alone a chosen one , on a chosen day
And you base this on
Only if you are capable of inspection is all that is needed
Your words not mine
Now
I do ask
Your unique DSCL2I
Is not on the DMQ website no matter where I look
Is this a new way to gain L2 or just a gimmick to make money from it
And one final question
How is your take of L2 candidates that can proove their worth on provided selected park culls only??
Because the way I see it from your very own wording
Park deer that are not actually easy are being put into a lime light
And those people that are running fair chase parks may now suffer due to your so called unique initative and drive to make money from it

Well, I just couldn't resist this one!

I find it funny that you even looked for OUR services on the DMQ site! I support DMQ wholeheartedly, and each month we run courses through which our clients benfit, DMQ benefit, and our company benefits - but why on earth would you think OUR services should be on DMQ's website??? Any more than anyone else's services should be on DMQ's website. They are an awarding body for DSC1 & 2, NOT a promotional 'vehicle' for deer management training companies.

YOU may not be able to guarantee finding a cull beast on a particular day, but we can!

I am interested to know where you found MY WORDS that said we 'put beast in front of people' for DSCL2i???? That's a ridiculous notion!!!! You may be interested to know that our clients are briefed fully on the type of animals to be culled, and it is their job to find them, select the beast they want, cull it etc. etc.

I'm very pleased for you that you were able to go out and find your beasts when your AW was available. And it's real kind of you to work around your AW's availability. We like it better when we can work around our clients and provide AW's when it suits the client - it's called 'customer care' and we take it very seriously. We have to do, it's part of our business strategy! ......... Yep, I'm afraid I run a business. Shame on me for making money from my business!

And finally (here's the cracker!!), what the hell is a 'FAIR CHASE PARK', I've searched everywhere and can't find any info. I even checked the DMQ site, and it wasn't there anywhere

Regards,

 

[stone]

YOU may not be able to guarantee finding a cull beast on a particular day, but we can!

I am interested to know where you found MY WORDS that said we 'put beast in front of people' for DSCL2i???? That's a ridiculous notion!!!!

Read your own words

 

[Sharpie]

Well, I just couldn't resist this one!
...

I am interested to know where you found MY WORDS that said we 'put beast in front of people' for DSCL2i???? That's a ridiculous notion!!!!

You may not have said it, but your man did, in post #24.

"the guarantee is that deer will be in front of you".

 

[Sharpie]

deleted as unneccessary

 

[Wolverine]

The guarantee won't be for Muntjac though I bet
Sorry couldn't resist

 

[csl]

I think we are just arguing over 'deer in front' and 'the deer in front' now. If it's a park and you are facing it, there will be deer in front, obviously.

Let's please try to keep this on topic...