Police 'spot' checks

[JAT]

Hi,

apologies if this subject has been covered previously.
However, met a gentleman last week who had recently received a visit from West Yorkshire Police. They turned up at his home, with no notice, to check his firearms and premises. He wasn't home. His mother showed them his cabinets and they then rang him to request his presence so that they could have them opened. On his return they did a comprehensive check, from ammunition count to cabinet fixing and found nothing amiss. The police said they were then off to carry out the same exercise on another FAC holder. So am assuming not a one off.
Is this now normal practise?
Understand that it is perfectly legal but I thought that the police had enough problems with staffing to fit in the one check every 5 years?
Your comments please.

 

[EMcC]

That does not sound right to me. I hope he checked with his Firearms department to confirm it was correct and pointed out that inpromptu visits are not convenient and that notice will be required in future.
What would happen had you been out of the country, would they have marked you down as uncooperative ?

 

[bewsher500]

I am afraid without an appointment and reason for the check I would be inclined to see them on their way.

the police don't just have the right to come in and have a look round because the feel like it.
If there is suspicion of some FAC transgression then they are required to go through the usual process to confirm said transgression.

 

[teyhan1]

No this is not right!! My wife is under strict instructions that should the police come (and I see no reason they will ) that she is not to let them in unless they have a warrant. The police have no right to enter your house unless they believe a crime has been commited. If they believe a crime has been commited then they can easily get a warrant. This is yet another example of police thinkng they can do whatever they please when it comes to law abiding gun owners.
If it were me I'd tell the to get off my land and come back with a warrant. They can write what they like on my file I'll just request a copy and sue there asses off if there's anything incorrect.
I don't live in a police state and if you let them walk all over you it'll soon be one. Love to see them try that one at a Lords residence.

 

[Orion]

I'm with EMcC on this one. Any inspection should be made at a time convenient with the FAC holder. It would have been perfectly correct for him to request them to make an appointment rather than having return home himself.

Certainly a call/email to the FLD requesting such, obtaining ID of officers that would be carrying out the inspection, and asking why it was felt needed in the first place might be in order.

This smacks of a 'fishing trip' by the police attempting to catch unwary FAC holders out.

 

[nuttyspaniel]

No this is not right!! My wife is under strict instructions that should the police come (and I see no reason they will ) that she is not to let them in unless they have a warrant. The police have no right to enter your house unless they believe a crime has been commited. If they believe a crime has been commited then they can easily get a warrant. This is yet another example of police thinkng they can do whatever they please when it comes to law abiding gun owners.
If it were me I'd tell the to get off my land and come back with a warrant. They can write what they like on my file I'll just request a copy and sue there asses off if there's anything incorrect.
I don't live in a police state and if you let them walk all over you it'll soon be one. Love to see them try that one at a Lords residence.

Im with you on this 1. My family have been told the same.

Nutty

 

[8x57]

You may find that under certain legislation (probably explosives regulations) the FEO has a permanent warrant to enter premises. While it may not be convenient to have a spot check it is probably quite legal. It's a simple matter to ask politely to see his authority or warrant if he can't produce it then he probably hasn't got the necessary authority to enter the premise without an invitation. My guess is that the licensing department is required to carry out a number of unannounced spot checks each year.

 

[User00003]

a. job justification
b. protect your backside in case something 'bad' happens
c. show your boss some stats that you're helping reduce gun ownership rather than constantly see it increasing

FAC holders - ensure you don't have over-limits or non-authorised ammo or items laying about that should be in the cabinet..not worth it as undoubtedly it would result in a loss of FAC/SGC.

 

[timbrayford]

Certainly a call/email to the FLD requesting such, obtaining ID of officers that would be carrying out the inspection, and asking why it was felt needed in the first place might be in order.

A good point, I would certainly wish to verify independently from the FLD that these were Police Officers and not criminals impersonating them.atb Tim

 

[Orion]

8x57 - I think you might be mistaken in that.

The police have no right of entry to private premises unless invited, with a warrant, or in immediate pursuit or when suspecting certain offences (usually indictable) are being committed.

With regard to the OPs situation, and for the information of all of us who might be uncertain where the limits of their powers lie, BASC have produced a handy Fact Sheet that should help - linked from here: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/0CE9DE68-23B9-4CB0-A4CD99909754D50E

 

[jamross65]

There is no such thing as official 'spot checks' at an FAC holders address, let's just be clear about that to start to start with. A visit would normally be as a result of another matter/concern whatever that may be.

The police do not have the right to 'enter' to check firearms/ammunition/security as it has been described in this scenario. That however does not mean they cannot attend unannounced and 'ask' to be allowed in to check.

Whether you extend them that courtesy is a matter for the individual concerned.

 

[hangfire]

Hopefully the gentleman concerned is a BASC member, if he is I suggest he has a chat with their head firearms man, I'm sure he would be very interested to hear the story

 

[THE STALKER]

Hopefully the gentleman concerned is a BASC member, if he is I suggest he has a chat with their head firearms man, I'm sure he would be very interested to hear the story

I would not have let them in without the right paper work at hand.

 

[Cut+Squirt]

You may find that under certain legislation (probably explosives regulations) the FEO has a permanent warrant to enter premises. While it may not be convenient to have a spot check it is probably quite legal. It's a simple matter to ask politely to see his authority or warrant if he can't produce it then he probably hasn't got the necessary authority to enter the premise without an invitation. My guess is that the licensing department is required to carry out a number of unannounced spot checks each year.

Such a thing does not exist.

 

[Si]

It needs to be knocked on the head before it becomes "the norm"

 

[Peter Eaton]

Such a thing does not exist.

Never heard of that either, as far as I am aware only 3 groups can enter your property with no notice. Customs and Excise, Gas board and only if life is at risk and the fire service. The latter doesnt have to be your property on fire it could be an adjacent property.

 

[Orion]

Never heard of that either, as far as I am aware only 3 groups can enter your property with no notice. Customs and Excise, Gas board and only if life is at risk and the fire service.

The police can also enter private property if they suspect that certain offences are being committed, (usually serious indictable ones) - lawful possession of firearms doesn't qualify though!

 

[8x57]

Such a thing does not exist.

It does exist because I held one though under different legislation.

 

[JAT]

Thanks all for the input. To summarise,
1 - the police have no legal right to enter premises without your permission unless they have reason to believe an offence is taking place.
2 - there is no such thing as a spot check on firearms.
3 - in case there is a knock on the door by the police, ensure that, if you are not at home, your partner refuses entry.
4 - at all times make sure that you are complying with your certificate conditions and FAC police guidelines.

Was concerned in case this was to become normal police practice.
However, there seems to be more to the initial 'spot check' mentioned in my first posting. Will enquire further and suggest he contacts BASC.

Thanks for your help.

 

[8x57]

Never heard of that either, as far as I am aware only 3 groups can enter your property with no notice. Customs and Excise, Gas board and only if life is at risk and the fire service. The latter doesnt have to be your property on fire it could be an adjacent property.

Powers of entry by the fire service are somewhat limited - I take it that you are refering to powers under the Fire & Rescue Services Act. In actual fact most firefighters are often on a premises illegally once a fire is extinguished unless invited to stay by the occupiers. Powers under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Act do not normally extend to private domestic dwellings.

There is also usually a facility under whatever act as regards powers of entry that the relevant officer can take with him other persons or services to assist him with his investigations. An example of this would be a housing officer who has gained access under the housing act (notice normally required) may take with him a fire officer, or a fire officer entering a relevant premises under the fire safety order may take with him police officers or licensing officers from the local authority.


I agree that there is possibly much more to this story than originally told.