Bavarian mountain hound

[widu]

Ouch! Cadex and i was just beginning to like ya?
6pointer, it's just that we maybe ain't on the same wave length and I don't really see where you are coming from half the time.You just said, that's whats learning is about and you are always trying to improve yourself and your'e stalking. So i guess that means your scent hound work and tracking skills both for you and your Ria.
You then say she ( RIA) was trained in a way to suit to suit your'e purpose. Surely the purpose is to be the best at finding wounded or injured deer end of. Not saying she is not capable of this yet it was not long ago you asked me to come and do a tracking day for you. Then you slate us for going abroad to learn the German ways to track and train our Hounds. Then in one of your last posts to wolverine you say these scent hounds are useless in the UK stalking environment yet you have one.
Think I am as confused as GrantN ??. All I am trying to do is show folks that these Hounds with shall we say better training and for their handlers could do so much more than just let them run straight in every time. As wolverine says words can be misconstrued and so can pictures or video's, sometimes what the author or producer is saying is misinterpreted to be something else entirely.
REGARDS WIDU.

 

[6pointer]

No one slated you for going to Germany in fact most have said well done for what you have achieved with your hound but that is not possible for every one and i for one would not travel to Germany or any other European country to put my dog and a trail.
What i was saying in my post was a direct reaction you what you posted (The BGS is a COLD SCENT specialist not a hot or fresh sent dog there are other breeds much better suited to this type of work in fact most others are better suited to this type of use) I do not agree or disagree but if what you say is true and 99% of deer stalkers only need a dog to find deer they have recently shot then they are as you say not for us and our way,s.
I asked you to help with a tracking day for any one interested i could not see anything wrong in that , in fact i still think its a very good idea.
Words can be misleading and you are correct so can pictures videos they don't show anything but they are fun and it is a forum.

My opinion is that the BMH is well suited to stalking deer in Britain and can be used as both a companion dog finder and cold tracker.
Maybe i should put a few videos up of RIA on sent trails that might impress but i doubt it thats the boring bit and beter done on your own.

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Ouch! Cadex and i was just beginning to like ya?
6pointer, it's just that we maybe ain't on the same wave length and I don't really see where you are coming from half the time.You just said, that's whats learning is about and you are always trying to improve yourself and your'e stalking. So i guess that means your scent hound work and tracking skills both for you and your Ria.
You then say she ( RIA) was trained in a way to suit to suit your'e purpose. Surely the purpose is to be the best at finding wounded or injured deer end of. Not saying she is not capable of this yet it was not long ago you asked me to come and do a tracking day for you. Then you slate us for going abroad to learn the German ways to track and train our Hounds. Then in one of your last posts to wolverine you say these scent hounds are useless in the UK stalking environment yet you have one.
Think I am as confused as GrantN ??. All I am trying to do is show folks that these Hounds with shall we say better training and for their handlers could do so much more than just let them run straight in every time. As wolverine says words can be misconstrued and so can pictures or video's, sometimes what the author or producer is saying is misinterpreted to be something else entirely.
REGARDS WIDU.

I'm just pulling your leg . . I like a laugh, even at my own expense somtimes.

 

[cwd]

What an interesting topic this is !
Im afraid I know very little about the different bloodlines of Bavarians and when I bought mine he was six months old from working stock so I was told
i never read any books or learned anything really about them I just used to take him in the truck everyday stalking and if we got the truck near to a shot animal he used to just jump out and get a bit of liver or some other tit bit
eventually I used to walk him in to shot deer and let him find them for himself and as the months went on he had been to plenty of deer
his first real test came when a client shot a fallow doe a little too far back and said deer ran maybe 300 yds leaving little or no blood to track myself so dog was walked to strike and I just followed him until he found the deer
thats basically all I used to do with the dog until a client shot a roe buck smashing high on the front leg the deer went down but got up and stumbled into cover , I went and got dog who started at strike and just disappeared into a thick hedge and ditch no sight or sound from him for nearly an hour until way in the distance we could hear him barking in a standing wheat field with the buck
i learned a lesson that day that I could no longer work the dog off a long lead and harness because once the dog was on the scent he lost all control of his ears and took no notice of me at all ha ha
i have used him on several deer species and plenty of times in Scotland on red roe and sika some fresh shots and some the following day but now always on his lead
i know someone with more experience of these hounds will tell me what I did wrong or what I am still doing wrong but for me doing it for a job I just wanted a dog to find lost deer and I must say this dog has done so plenty of times even when stalkers are convinced they had missed
if in the future I have another Bavarian I would welcome comments on things I could change about my method of training
thanks for an interesting thread
regards andy

 

[Wildboar1973]

John,Davie and myself know one another,as you know,we are having banter that's all.
I have not said"unless its German its no good".What I am saying is the German dogs are better,all round.
Now if someone can prove different fair enough,they can't though because that is the fact.
If people want to use and train their dogs whichever way they want they can,no big deal to myself.
I am not jumping down people's throats because their dog is not German.
What annoys me most in this debate is I am putting across my opinion as asked for by the OP,now because a majority of people are upset at my posts should I not post?
There is a world of difference between German dogs and what there is available in this country.
I don't mean to cause offence and hope none is taken.A day old track is what these dogs have been selectively bred for a century to do.
This poses another question,if people aren't willing to put the work into their dogs to get them to do this,do they really need one?
They are the specialists and as such should be trained,bred and worked as such,any dog will find dead deer.So can these dogs once they've mastered their proper job,cold scent,then you really do see a difference in any dog,they are much much more well rounded John as a result.
I have gave numerous people help with their dogs on here,Polish,Slovakian,labs,HS,wires and the rest,some in this thread as well,I do know what I'm on about John.
I will not post from now on as I get the feeling I'm "boring"you again......
Up to the OP to decide what he wants to do.The facts are there.

Hopefully I dont get banned , but: YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
Nothing to add, except: These particular breeds are also perfectly health checked and strong relieable dogs for the purpose they were breeded for!

Michael

 

[6pointer]

George that would be in your opinion then

 

[widu]

CWD, Hello , good honest post . From that Roe Buck you learnt a valuable lesson, (luckily) and the dog. Many dogs on the free run sadly only learn that roads, railways, and cliffs etc' are fatal ! .Even when one has many years training and experience, in many different tracking scenarios it happens when you least expect it. A friend who tracks a lot of Boar said his dog very experienced was nearly killed by a yearling Roe buck a little spiker was almost expired and just laid flopping it's head about not aggressively. Yet it just caught the hound on the neck with one of the spikes it yelped he thought nothing of it . Put deer and hound in his truck luckily hound sat on the back seat and leant forward to be patted on his neck at which he was found to be oozing blood from his neck from a tiny hole the spike had touched the main artery and it was pouring out . His hound after a lot of veterinary skill was Ok that's how easy it happens, now you hear so many say they just let their hound go straight in to all kind of situations. I have not heard one of them say anything about protection equipment for the hound /dog. Maybe it's just me that really values my hound but I would think not?. There is a lot of poo! said on here about best practice,ending suffering, what will Joe public say you got to go in straight away or 30 min wait is enough. Well what about the dog/ Hounds welfare he is a very important part of the team after all or is he ?. All about training, education, learning, and perhaps being willing to change our pre -conception of what a Scenthound and handler or shooter must do or feels he must do. So good hunting and keep him safe?.
Regards Widu.

 

[cwd]

thanks for the advice widu
i have had working dogs nearly all my life and the last dog i used for stalking was a lurcher and did so for nearly ten years
the main advantage the lurcher had was obviously speed and if wounded deer were raised from their bed the dog could nearly always catch up with them the bavarian on the other hand just plods along nose to the ground until sumtimes just bumps into the deer
one of the main reasons i now work on the lead is im just scared of loosing him either on roads or other places and when we stalk in scotland there is also the risk of just loosing him in a large forest etc as im sure the dog would just keep going on a not fataly wounded animal
another thing i have noticed with him is he is normally a very friendly pals with anyone who will fuss him type of dog until he is on a kill and then he can become aggressive to people other than me , is this a normal trait of this breed or is this another fault due to his training ?
i have never seen anybody else work a bavarian in true field conditions so i have no other experiance to base judgement on and i am all ears
the main reason i aquired this type of dog was due to the fact i had just lost the lurcher due to old age and was without a dog just for deer and i know now i have made mistakes and if i aquire another i just want to make sure i am more prepared
regards andy

 

[widu]

Again thanks for being so open and honest, as for the aggression at the carcase it is a must and so long as is controlled ie, doe's not actually bite or attack the stranger, uncontrolled aggression, that is very bad, so that's fine this is his way of saying mine and the masters. there actually is a lot more to be read from this just do not allow him to get to bad with strangers . Regards Widu.

 

[6pointer]

Good post again WIDU and i must agree just letting a dog go in on an animal that can harm it would be foolish but lets not take away from the facts that some time you will need to let your dog go and while you will have your heart in your mouth unless you are a heartless fool this is were you will find out what the dogs really is about. I have worked many many dogs to live quarrie and there comes a time when you just need to let the s hit hit the fan. Lurchers running there first live rabbit or Terriers under ground you can train them all you want but sooner or later the umbilical cord must be cut. There are certain things i would not do with a young dog but come this doe season should i wound or should a friend wound she will be let in on a live doe her reaction will be gaged against the reactions i have had on dead and on training days. I know that a does hoofs can be formidable weapons but as far as risks go this i feel is my best option.

 

[Rudi]

Intresting post , realy i am enjoy to read all this .
Sorry for those who not understand the tracking and the deer dog world , a chame that a continental tradition is not accept .
But again i am just reading not reacting , i know better .

 

[jamross65]

Intresting post , realy i am enjoy to read all this .
Sorry for those who not understand the tracking and the deer dog world , a chame that a continental tradition is not accept .
But again i am just reading not reacting , i know better .

Hi Rudi

I get the impression from recent discussions that it is not so much unacceptable, it's the fact that so little is/was known about the methods used on the continent when many got their hands on scenthound breeds a few years ago.

hopefully that will gradually change with posts from the likes of yourself and Widu.

 

[6pointer]

You are correct Brian most had to follow books links on the Internet and at the time i got mine the guidance was from The BMH society. Also while you cant take anything away from WIDU and his dogs achievement travelling to europe to get the dog tested is out of reach to all but the most committed.

 

[jamross65]

You are correct Brian most had to follow books links on the Internet and at the time i got mine the guidance was from The BMH society. Also while you cant take anything away from WIDU and his dogs achievement travelling to europe to get the dog tested is out of reach to all but the most committed.

I agree Davie re the travel to Europe, but Polish dogs or German dogs if being worked would surely benefit now from our learned friends on here offering the free advice.

 

[jimmy milnes]

hi all,
i have to agree with the above posts about people not knowing how to go on when they get a dog that they wish to train for tracking, but let me give my story if i may about what happend not long after i got tilly,
i wanted to train her for tracking so i booked a place on a "basic day" course run by the NGO at calton moor range three people lectured/spoke that day on what to do regards training your dog to track wounded deer and all three are/were members on here, and on that day we were all told to use blood on the trail, and on the practical element in the afternoon blood was laid along with a hoof dragged on the floor for the dogs to follow.
later on "twelve or so months" there on here saying never start a dog off on blood use cleaves only until it can follow cold scent trails of cleaves only.
so as the above posts say give us the correct information so we can do it right from the off please, im more than willing to listen to anyone who can teach me something but when they contradict themselfs a short while later it doesnt do much for my confidence in them.
oh and yes ive asked one of them since why they told me wrong on that day and the answer i was given was "well you know how it is when your asked to do something by a big organization and your a in a strange country you dont want to rock the boat"
this is in no way ment to cause an argument with anyone its just a statement on a true fact that happened

kind regards
jimmy

 

[Hunting Experiences]

Well I am now in a position to get myself a dog to train for deer work.However I am a little confused.
I have read articles about warm scents and cold scents ?
This is the first bit of confusion ?
Should I get a dog and train it to follow a warm scent, for example a recently shot deer that was may be hit a little far back and made its get away. The dog would then be trained to follow the wounded deer and then hold it at bay once found ?
Or do I train a dog to follow a cold scent say the next day ? But is this ethically correct. By that I mean leaving a wounded animal until the next day to follow up ? Some how does not sound right to me !
Second bit of confusion !
I have decided on a Bavarian as my new companion, however I have read that there are Bavarians and Bavarians ?? By this I mean the Polish bred ones and the German bred ones. What's the difference ? Is there a specific breed line that I should be going for and ones that I should avoid ?
If anyone who has experience of this breed and could offer me some advice and a point in the right direction, it would be much appreciated .

Sorry what deer will you be shooting?

 

[dengreenhowe]

Hi Rudi,like yourself Ienjoy reading this posts .My view is if training a deer dog whatever breed can train it as near as posible to continental standard they will have a dog capable of handling any UK.deer work.My oppinion of a wounded deer being approached by a big dog is the deer will be scared off. But if approached by a small dog there is more chance of the deer staying and fending off the dog. What is your oppinion Rudi? I settled for Standard Wirehaired Teckels for this reason, as when they approach the carcass dead or alive they circle it and bark to keep it in same area until i dispatch it. PS. this is new venture for me and always looking for help!!!!

 

[stone]

hi all,
i have to agree with the above posts about people not knowing how to go on when they get a dog that they wish to train for tracking, but let me give my story if i may about what happend not long after i got tilly,
i wanted to train her for tracking so i booked a place on a "basic day" course run by the NGO at calton moor range three people lectured/spoke that day on what to do regards training your dog to track wounded deer and all three are/were members on here, and on that day we were all told to use blood on the trail, and on the practical element in the afternoon blood was laid along with a hoof dragged on the floor for the dogs to follow.
later on "twelve or so months" there on here saying never start a dog off on blood use cleaves only until it can follow cold scent trails of cleaves only.
so as the above posts say give us the correct information so we can do it right from the off please, im more than willing to listen to anyone who can teach me something but when they contradict themselfs a short while later it doesnt do much for my confidence in them.
oh and yes ive asked one of them since why they told me wrong on that day and the answer i was given was "well you know how it is when your asked to do something by a big organization and your a in a strange country you dont want to rock the boat"
this is in no way ment to cause an argument with anyone its just a statement on a true fact that happened

kind regards
jimmy

Hey jimmy
there is actually a reason for this which was made clear to me after that day you attended at Calton moor range
I can see why and how it can be so confusing
but we need to focus on where the guidance came from and why
then look at our own needs and experience here in the UK and what those people were/are looking to achieve

 

[jamross65]

hi all,
i have to agree with the above posts about people not knowing how to go on when they get a dog that they wish to train for tracking, but let me give my story if i may about what happend not long after i got tilly,
i wanted to train her for tracking so i booked a place on a "basic day" course run by the NGO at calton moor range three people lectured/spoke that day on what to do regards training your dog to track wounded deer and all three are/were members on here, and on that day we were all told to use blood on the trail, and on the practical element in the afternoon blood was laid along with a hoof dragged on the floor for the dogs to follow.
later on "twelve or so months" there on here saying never start a dog off on blood use cleaves only until it can follow cold scent trails of cleaves only.
so as the above posts say give us the correct information so we can do it right from the off please, im more than willing to listen to anyone who can teach me something but when they contradict themselfs a short while later it doesnt do much for my confidence in them.
oh and yes ive asked one of them since why they told me wrong on that day and the answer i was given was "well you know how it is when your asked to do something by a big organization and your a in a strange country you dont want to rock the boat"
this is in no way ment to cause an argument with anyone its just a statement on a true fact that happened

kind regards
jimmy

Hi Jimmy

When I first ruptured my ACL in my knee they (hospital staff, surgeon etc) immobilised the joint in a plaster cast for 6 weeks.

I get the ligament replaced with a bit of tendon, then some time later rupture the repair playing sport again. The difference a few years makes in treatment! No immobilising, straight into a brace and off to the physio!

Point is that at the time of your dog training things were in their infancy. If I had not met Rudi I would be doing what was seen in a recent training video (shown it for a laugh) and be splattering blood up and down the track as well...

 

[widu]

Well once again you offer good genuine advice to someone advise born from fact, and a proven knowledge, and good old six pointer from his book or DVD gained knowledge,(by his own admissions) not tracking experience taught hands on.Yes by the Germans, and I made the decision to go because i wanted to, to learn for my benefit how best it should be done. I really don't know why you have such a problem with it or me it seem's Davie. As for cutting his umbilical cord I can only think you know how I work my hound . Sorry you don't, I could say a lot more but it's not wort it . I apologise CWD that my post to you is not seen as the best way so might be best to PM me if you wish. Regards Widu.