Police 'spot' checks

If a constable knocked at your door and asked to come in and you refused, he would have to go away. He can't simply take the line "aha, you must be up to something" so I'll get a warrant.

Fortunately, that isn't the law. Case law resulting from PACE states that mere suspicion ("I think you're up to something") is not reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion must be based on something concrete (concrete being the word used in the judgement). So if an officer encounters someone on the street at 2am and he's carrying a holdall, and the officer is aware that a burglary in which silver cutlary was stolen occurred only ten minute ago and not far from there, he might suspect he has the burglar but, thus far, he has no resonable grounds for suspicion. However, if the officer hears clanking from the holdall and thus reasonably thinks it it might be the stolen cutlery then at that point he has reasonable grounds for suspicion. Similarly, telling an officer who comes knocking at your door asking to see your firearms that he cannot come in is most definitely not 'reasonable cause to suspect' a crime is being or is about to be committed.

If an unannounced constable arrives at your door saying he's undertaking a 'spot check' of your firearms, you can tell him it isn't convenient, he should is to go away and if he wants to check your firearms he should make an appointment. And you, as a responsible FAC holder, could prepare eveything for when the police returns to examine your guns, FAC and any other paperwork, and if they want to spend their time doing it, count your ammo stocks.

If an officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you are committing a firearms offence, then he should get a search warrant from a magistrate. If when he comes knocking he already has a search warrant in his back pocket, he will typically ask you if he can come in and see your guns - without telling you that he has a warrant. He will do this because it makes things easier for him: a search warrant restricts what he can do, if you agree to him coming into yoru home he isn't restricted in that way. So explicitly ask him whether he has a warrant. If he does, tell him he will have to execute it as you refuse entry otherwise. Explain that you are not simply being awkward but by making him execute the warrant it protects your interests. If a constable executes a search warrant, then:

- only the persons named on the warrant may enter; if one officer is specifically named then only he may enter, not an entire search team (this is a clerical error on the part of the police); I have seen warrants that name a specific officer and other warrants that said "all the officers of [named constabulary]"

- he is only permitted to search for the items named on the warrant; if he is searching for a rifle, then the warrant would not authorise him to search, for example, through your desk drawers as a rifle could not be hidden there; the warrant more typically would say something like "firearms and component parts, ammunition and components, and documents"

- once he has found the items named on the warrent, he must leave immediately

- as the subject of the warrant, you are immediately entitled to a solicitor paid for by legal aid - so phone one immediately (not that all solicitors would know the foregoing)

- the police must create a search log

Be aware that under PACE, a constable lawfully upon any premises "may sieze any thing", with or without a warrant.

As for 'spot checks', I should have thought that most constabularies were too busy to spend their time that way.

Hope this helps.

-JMS

Informative post. Things slightly different in Scotland (as always...)

The only part I would perhaps contest is that even hearing a noise coming from a bag that may indicate property similar to that described as being stolen would not in my opinion necessarily give justified suspicion. But this is digressing. It does show though that to enforce entry or a search certain criteria must be met, not least reasonable grounds to suspect. They may be debated during later proceedings but that should not be a concern that will dictate actions at the time either by the police or the member of the public...
 
its a very good but **** thing at the same time good the check are there not good for the time it takes
 
Word is going round that Cheshire are doing this now. It seems to me that someone needs to make a formal complaint supported by BASC.
 
The word about Cheshire doing it is correct 4 police men in a van wearing combats turned up at my stepfathers house and asked to see his shotgun and cabinet,
He has neither I sold his shotgun to someone on SD 2 years ago and I think Finbear 270 has his cabinet, so if they had checked their records it would have saved them a trip.
Then they stated that because I had moved my cabinets from his house to my house they would have to call on me to check my guns and cabinet.
This happened 3 years ago and I had a renewal last year when everything was checked.
So I phoned them to check who they were and told them they would have to make an apointment,to be told as they had spoken to me it did not matter.
 
I never again want to hear the police saying they overstreched and under resourced when they have the time to carryout this sort of nonsense. What exactly are they looking for?
 
As in all walks of life you have good and bad the police are no different in fact that's how GWENT police got its nickname "BENT GWENT" used by not just other forces but also by some of their own, but in my experience things are improving and any checks on firearms legally held shouldn't pose a problem for the FAC holder if done within reasonable hours or by appointment however cold calling can make people paranoid given the climate we live in with the publics impression of firearms fuelled by the media and the attitude of "interpritation" of firarms legislation so common sense and cooperation (& honesty if the police could bring themselves that far) would make for a much better future.
If they knocked my door I would let 1 in without any problem but no more unless by appointment or having given me a bell first but that's just me, I think that courtesy & honesty cost nothing and the police could do themselves a great favour if they practiced this more, then we wouldn't feel so agrivated when they called unannounced and be debateing this and it's legality with such aggression.
 
My first question would have been "What firearms?" Who knows they were real police? They might have just seen a BASC sticker in my car and assumed.
If they had a list of all my firearms, and it looked like they WERE real I would have called my firearms team to check it was genuine.
THEN told them it was not convenient and to make an appointment to come back when it was convenient for me.
Unless they have reason to believe a crime has been committed, and therefore have a warrant, they have as much right to come in your house as your window cleaner does.
Spot checks. Whatever next?
 
My first question would have been "What firearms?" Who knows they were real police? They might have just seen a BASC sticker in my car and assumed.
If they had a list of all my firearms, and it looked like they WERE real I would have called my firearms team to check it was genuine.
THEN told them it was not convenient and to make an appointment to come back when it was convenient for me.
Unless they have reason to believe a crime has been committed, and therefore have a warrant, they have as much right to come in your house as your window cleaner does.
Spot checks. Whatever next?

Could not have put that better myself, however this is a very dodgy area, you really have to have your wits about you and the bottle to stand up to them, more so if a PC is present who could possibly try to unerve you and trick entry into your premises by asking "are you obstructing a police officer in the execution of his duty?"

Ian.
 
Could not have put that better myself, however this is a very dodgy area, you really have to have your wits about you and the bottle to stand up to them, more so if a PC is present who could possibly try to unerve you and trick entry into your premises by asking "are you obstructing a police officer in the execution of his duty?" Ian.

Unless the oath has changed, I don't think trying to gain unlawful entry into my property is part of a constable's "duty" in any way, and I'd happily stand my ground if they tried it on.

My storage has been checked. I have passed the background checks for an FAC, nowhere in law does it say they can turn up and enter my property to check that my guns are still in the secure storage they'd already checked and approved. There is no implied right of entry, unless they have good reason to believe an offence is being, or is about to be, committed. "I thought he might have his guns out" is NOT good reason to believe!
 
Unless the oath has changed, I don't think trying to gain unlawful entry into my property is part of a constable's "duty" in any way, and I'd happily stand my ground if they tried it on.

My storage has been checked. I have passed the background checks for an FAC, nowhere in law does it say they can turn up and enter my property to check that my guns are still in the secure storage they'd already checked and approved. There is no implied right of entry, unless they have good reason to believe an offence is being, or is about to be, committed. "I thought he might have his guns out" is NOT good reason to believe!


Exactly. Stopping plod coming into your house when they don't have a warrant is perfectly legal. Stopping them when they DO have a warrant is a different matter. In the example above, they have no right to enter your house and if they did, would be committing trespass. Maybe they don't know it, so you might need to point that fact out. No reason to fear the law if you are legal, and no need to cow-tow to them either.
 
Unless the oath has changed, I don't think trying to gain unlawful entry into my property is part of a constable's "duty" in any way, and I'd happily stand my ground if they tried it on.

My storage has been checked. I have passed the background checks for an FAC, nowhere in law does it say they can turn up and enter my property to check that my guns are still in the secure storage they'd already checked and approved. There is no implied right of entry, unless they have good reason to believe an offence is being, or is about to be, committed. "I thought he might have his guns out" is NOT good reason to believe!

Matt, i understand perfectly what you are saying and agree 100% but there are plenty of coppers who will try to gain entry to your property by underhand ways, the legallity or duty of it has absolutely no relevance, its simply because you have said no and they wont like that.

Ian.
 
Theyre welcome to come round, I have all my .22 in bean tins, and have now tipped all my .17hmr into a jar, the .223's are in a plastic tub loose...... should slow the counting down a little bit. Suffice to say I know exactly how many rounds of each I have (written down in my log) but I'll keep that quiet. #nothingtohide
 
Something doesn't sound right about all this cold-calling business. Firstly, the point about resources is well made. Have they really got time to do this?

Secondly, surely if you were going to have too much ammo or an unauthorised firearm or unauthorised ammo, the last place you'd keep it is in your gun cabinet/ammo locker. Are these guys searching people's entire houses?

Thirdly, if they are doing it on a routine basis with no other grounds, then why aren't people complaining? We jump through enough hoops as it is without having them take the Micky.

Im interested to hear more about this.

For what it's worth, all my dealings over 15 years with Wilts, Hants and so far TVP, have been nothing other than professional, helpful, prompt and cheerful. Not once have I ever been made to feel marginalised or pressured into doing any thing other than exactly what I asked for. I'd be interested to know if there's more than meets the eye going on in some of these cases.
 
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