Otter?

[patjack]

Otters were not controled to such low numbers , infact otterhound packs packs hunted during the summer months so the usual thing was a short draw to a holt then bolt the otter , give it law then hunt it , if the holt contained a female with young the pack moved on . About 1970 otter hound packs started to report a seriouse drop in numbers , in 1973 most packs dispanded those remaining carried on as mink hounds and after the ban survived as rat packs . The last otter hunted in this country was bolted by a russel dog called Tigger belonging to Burt Gripton of shiffnel . The best way to proof a pond/lake is 2 strands of electricfied high tensile wire side by side about 8 inches off the floor , bang a 4 inch fence post in , cut it off about a foot high on the angle so water runs off and put an insulator either side for your wire . Anyone interested in otter hunting should read "a chain of bubbles" or "reflections along a chain"

Good stuff Trouble sounds like it would cost no where near the 100k that was quoted and a reasonable easy task to undertake

Burt gripton I have some old terrier hunting books and He's mentioned alot if my memory is correct there is a good picture of him in a lane with some of his terriers.

 

[trouble]

electric is the only way to do it , stock fencing wont keep them out , you could put another strand on top of the post if you wanted to make a real job of it . One good thing is the mink population is falling as otter numbers rise due to inraguilde predation

 

[patjack]

So is there a rough cost say per metre for electric fencing and if so how many miles would 100k cover .

 

[trouble]

not a clue mate , im a keeper not a fencer , i dont know why but high tensile wire seems to give a better shock than the usual electric wire , you want to run it off a mains supply through a propper unit that delivers upto 2000volts but no amps this will also keep its self free of shorts as it burns off weeds that grow back after having first been sprayed off

 

[Hornet 6]

Electric fences, yup great in theory, but fall down on two thing I can think immediately.
No main electric supply to any of our lakes, second would be the risk to people, the elderly and infirm.
Also how would our public liability insurance feel about it.

The decline in otters numbers is also tied in with the declining fish stocks in our rivers, years ago otters did not need to travel to far flung lakes in search of dinner, now they would have too if they want to eat.
These days there are far more stocked lakes than there ever were in times past, and far more people looking to find their sport there.
I have fished at and looked after these particular lakes for most of my life, so 50 years of it, never in the past were otters ever seen even close to them.
We don't buy fish in unless absolutely necessary, we look after and make the best of what we have. The last stocking 12 years ago with carp were 1000 small 6 to 8 inch fish that were bought to stock a new lake we had dug, this lake received 5k of funding by the lottery commission as we made fishing available to locals, and catered for the less able-bodied in our community, if otters move in that will be the lake that suffers most, and will affect the most people, would be a great shame, but if it meant the other lakes survived we would cut loose from it, the farmer would be most likely to fill it in.
We are in the position that we must take the best care possible of our fish, and could never take the risk of buying more carp in due to the risk of importing a disease, something that is all to easy to do, even with fully health checked stock.
This modern trend to try and re-introduce something to an area (that was never there in the first place) is mad, and no good will come of it.


Neil.

 

[Tamus]

So is there a rough cost say per metre for electric fencing and if so how many miles would 100k cover .

0 ... When there's a power outage.

 

[patjack]

Electric fences, yup great in theory, but fall down on two thing I can think immediately.
No main electric supply to any of our lakes, second would be the risk to people, the elderly and infirm.
Also how would our public liability insurance feel about it.

The decline in otters numbers is also tied in with the declining fish stocks in our rivers, years ago otters did not need to travel to far flung lakes in search of dinner, now they would have too if they want to eat.
These days there are far more stocked lakes than there ever were in times past, and far more people looking to find their sport there.
I have fished at and looked after these particular lakes for most of my life, so 50 years of it, never in the past were otters ever seen even close to them.
We don't buy fish in unless absolutely necessary, we look after and make the best of what we have. The last stocking 12 years ago with carp were 1000 small 6 to 8 inch fish that were bought to stock a new lake we had dug, this lake received 5k of funding by the lottery commission as we made fishing available to locals, and catered for the less able-bodied in our community, if otters move in that will be the lake that suffers most, and will affect the most people, would be a great shame, but if it meant the other lakes survived we would cut loose from it, the farmer would be most likely to fill it in.
We are in the position that we must take the best care possible of our fish, and could never take the risk of buying more carp in due to the risk of importing a disease, something that is all to easy to do, even with fully health checked stock.
This modern trend to try and re-introduce something to an area (that was never there in the first place) is mad, and no good will come of it.


Neil.

What Modern TREND? Humans have been introducing lots of species all over the world especially deer and game species just look at NZ and Australia and I'm sure someone will chip in with their contribution
Take the Rabbit now that was introduced in modern times I think Not (WAS IT NOT IN SAXON TIMES?) how many of us started shooting on the humble rabbit with Air rifles-ferreting-running dogs-terriers
Pheasants now again in modern times quite sometime ago infact
I don't include the accidental and non accidental illegal introductions that have brought disease and problems with native species (signal crayfish was that not anglers that made that error?) that would never be proved eitherway
yes the red kite was reintroduced to mid wales in the late 1980's from birds from europe and has been a great success and brings in lots of tourist to parts of wales and with them money spent locally yes they have spread much further afield now
What about DEER thats what this site is about at heart and deer were all but gone from the Uk then they were reintroduced for sporting purposes, without this so called modern introduction there would be no deer, maybe some bodies would want that but very few on here I think

I'm sure you will correct me but was it not the fact we only had one type of carp? the common carp that the monks farmed in stew ponds for food not for recreational purposes where did the mirror-leather carp come from? yes zander were introduced from europe but they do taste good and a whole specimen side of angling would have it no other way and I'm sure there are lots of other fish species

So while this has become a debate about the Otter which were in almost all water systems in the uk and hunting history says that yes they were even in south essex there is a much bigger picture and maybe no one has the answer but one thing is for sure they are here to stay and will breed with success if there is a plentiful supply of food stuff which is 67% fish and with modern mass produced high volume fisheries that are always being stocked for recreacional anglers they surely will do well and have some impact on fisheries unless fisherie persons think and take lawful actions to alleviate the losses incurred

As for the map being wrong that might be the case and if so that will make the Pro Otter groups very happy as the reintroduction has become more of a success than they could of ever dreamt of

Fisheries have to undertake risk assessment surely for insurance purposes and areas to be safe for persons with mobilty problems have to have boardwalks and ramps and rails everywhere so that could be incorperated with electric fencing underneath it so to cause a no trip/hazard and there are grants available, alot of the wildlife trust have boardwalked and railed with funding from the lottery-english nature.

Modern thinking is the only way forward otherwise we become Dinosaurs and we know what happened to that species and as others have written theres space for all of us (well maybe the world population of humans is the real problem) we need to be more tollerant or do we want to go back to the Good-Bad old days of the keepers gibbet with ever preditor species on it, Modern thinking working with other parties not just pro shooting education and informative dialect will help our cause small minded negative thinking will do no good and will harm our given pursuits if we choose to allienate others there is no future.

 

[Hornet 6]

I'm sure you will correct me but was it not the fact we only had one type of carp? the common carp that the monks farmed in stew ponds for food not for recreational purposes where did the mirror-leather carp come from?

Both mirror and leather carp came in to this country for food, bred without scales on the continent to make preparing for cooking easier.
Yes many were imported illegally for fisheries, and look what happened to them, most lakes that were stocked with illegal fish are now either gone, or
have no original fish left, they all died due to the various diseases they imported along with the fish.
As for electric fences below board walks, so the otter crosses above the wires, how about gates, can't electrify them, so otters enter through or under the gates.
It just won't work, and for us with no electricity something that works purely on physical prevention is all there is, again money.
We would have to construct 6 otter proof fences, the smallest would be 1/2 an acre, then 1 1/2, 2 and finally 3 around 4 acres.
This year we are trying to work out how to fund the repair of a couple of miles of track, that will be hard enough, let alone trying to fence it all as well.

Neil.

 

[simon1979]

there was funding available for electric fences to help stop otters and protect lakes and fisheries, not sure if thats still available.
i also beleave that live capture and relaise is illagel to so that woundnt be of any help. But the EA spend alot of money stocking some rivers which is good but its even better for the otters as there adding more food for them and increasing there numbers.

 

[trouble]

Electric fences, yup great in theory, but fall down on two thing I can think immediately.
No main electric supply to any of our lakes, second would be the risk to people, the elderly and infirm.
Also how would our public liability insurance feel about it.

The decline in otters numbers is also tied in with the declining fish stocks in our rivers, years ago otters did not need to travel to far flung lakes in search of dinner, now they would have too if they want to eat.
These days there are far more stocked lakes than there ever were in times past, and far more people looking to find their sport there.
I have fished at and looked after these particular lakes for most of my life, so 50 years of it, never in the past were otters ever seen even close to them.
We don't buy fish in unless absolutely necessary, we look after and make the best of what we have. The last stocking 12 years ago with carp were 1000 small 6 to 8 inch fish that were bought to stock a new lake we had dug, this lake received 5k of funding by the lottery commission as we made fishing available to locals, and catered for the less able-bodied in our community, if otters move in that will be the lake that suffers most, and will affect the most people, would be a great shame, but if it meant the other lakes survived we would cut loose from it, the farmer would be most likely to fill it in.
We are in the position that we must take the best care possible of our fish, and could never take the risk of buying more carp in due to the risk of importing a disease, something that is all to easy to do, even with fully health checked stock.
This modern trend to try and re-introduce something to an area (that was never there in the first place) is mad, and no good will come of it.


Neil.

What you do as regards electric fencing is you put signs up and hang others on it , if you have no chance of a mains supply you run a fencer unit off a tractor battery , it works , Ive done it . The decline in otter numbers in the late 60s early 70s was not due to falling fish numbers it was linked to insecticides and nitrates leaching into water courses and loss of habbitat , I think its true that some captive bred otters have been released and they have bounced back in part due to beening able to find easy pickings in the form of signal crayfish , this is part of the reason most problems on lakes are in the winter when crays are out of reach . If your concerned with the well being of your fish try electric , if not youll have to put up with it because every river system has otters on it and more than you think

 

[simon1979]

has there been many otter sightings in the midlands area??

 

[trouble]

As for electric fences below board walks, so the otter crosses above the wires, how about gates, can't electrify them, so otters enter through or under the gates.
It just won't work, and for us with no electricity something that works purely on physical prevention is all there is, again money.
We would have to construct 6 otter proof fences, the smallest would be 1/2 an acre, then 1 1/2, 2 and finally 3 around 4 acres.


Neil.

How do you think keepers stop foxes walking into release pens ?

 

[patjack]

has there been many otter sightings in the midlands area??

Yes suppose to be in the river stour still looking hoping to see them, one of my plasterers is a keen angler and has seen them quite alot surely must be in the severn system

 

[Hornet 6]

How do you think keepers stop foxes walking into release pens ?

Electric fences I suppose, no idea how big release pens are, but I guess much smaller than our lakes.
The otter thing was raised by a committee member at our meeting this week, I did state electric fences were just about all we could do.
The response was not good, the small fish fraternity though otters would not be a problem to them, one carp anglers thought I should just shoot them.
The only thing that came from it was deciding to donate to this group http://www.facebook.com/groups/390555871032547/
Not sure that that is an answer so far it seems they don't even have a website ?

Neil.

 

[patjack]

Electric fences I suppose, no idea how big release pens are, but I guess much smaller than our lakes.
The otter thing was raised by a committee member at our meeting this week, I did state electric fences were just about all we could do.
The response was not good, the small fish fraternity though otters would not be a problem to them, one carp anglers thought I should just shoot them.
The only thing that came from it was deciding to donate to this group http://www.facebook.com/groups/390555871032547/
Not sure that that is an answer so far it seems they don't even have a website ?

Neil.

Like Trouble I pressumed you being on a shooting forum-person that you might of spent some time on game - pheasant shoots in one way or another and you would of seen the very low cost electric 2-3 strand system that keepers use to keep foxes out of release pens they also use battery radios with talking channels to sound like humans are about and that has some affect also, yes some release pens are very big certainly as large as your lakes.

We tried the horse type band system its stainless woven through a white plastic strip and connects to mains-transformed down or battery then clips on to kickin posts to protect some new plantings on one of my permissions Not my idea was the landowners it kept the deer out for a while they would walk up to the fencing get very close and then back off but there was one or two persistant bucks who eventually decided to break through it one got caught-tangled up horrible mess and a whole day tracking him down to be shot, the fencing came down and it was decided the only way was a cull of the numbers which is what we had suggested in the first place.

There are 12 volt systems look on any of the keepers supplies sites also with the sort of money you are quoting having invested in time and cost a solar photovoltaic panel would keep the batteries topped up as they only admit a pulse system so are low consumption, panel wise a small system like you see above some road signs and the cost would not be huge and with a lifespan of maybe 20years.

Interesting some of the comments on the facebook link will they ever learn posting on a social network site such comments and lets face it the last government and this one won't even implement a Official Badger Cull they keep putting it off so how do the anglers ever expect a cull of otters to ever happen within the law and there would be such a public outcry, Farmers businesses are being badly affected and nothing is done so for anglers to expect a cull for a hobby-sport-pastime when the fish are caught and then returned seems very unlikely, it may have 6 million + partakers but the amount of money it generates is small change to governments in the bigger scheme of things.

Seriously have a look into Electric fencing its really that easy hopefully.

 

[Hornet 6]

I have looked at electric fencing, or rather the components to build one, the local Ernest Doe's have it all on display.
I just can't see it working for us, all the lakes have an almost complete hedge around them, only one has a fence, and that has
3 gates, 2 pedestrian sized and 1 for the quad and trailer. It also has a solid hedge all the way round, in the main 3 to 10 feet thick
but 100 yards of that fence is outside the fence line, in places 30 yards or more with no access to the middle ground.
The electric fences would have to be on the land we rent on 5 of the lakes, which means between the waters edge and the foot path round the lakes.
I may be wrong about the difficulties and somebody with more experience may take one look and say, easy.....
Should it become necessary to do something I will get somebody to have a look.
As for the battery power, charging is the problem, nobody is prepared to take a leisure battery we use for an electric outboard home to charge it
let alone 5 or 6 large tractor batteries, I'm certainly not going to volunteer, first because my smart car is not the vehicle to carry them, and secondly because
charging them would have to be done in my lounge, keen I may be, but I am not doing that. Lol
Only option I can think of would be charging in place with either a solar panel or a small wind turbine like used on yachts that live on a mooring.
The costs then gets much higher than a basic battery fence.

Neil.

 

[old keeper]

This surely is the old conflict, that since legislation has been brought in to protect certain species there will be those in the countryside who will undoubtedly suffer. When I was keepering I detested the buzzards that caused me grief, both stress and substatial financial loss to the shoot. Years ago we shot the ones that caused problems and left the others alone. Same with the badgers and basically anything else that caused us problems. Sheep worrying too, dogs were dealt summary justice, end of problem.
Now things have changed, we have to put up with intrusion in the affairs of the countryside by many who know little of the problems we have. Near me are a series of quite small ponds let out for coarse fishing, recently a couple of otters turned up and basically have removed all the fish. The farmer who owns the ponds has lost income in what, for him are hard times yet there is nothing he can do about it.
Electric fencing as has been said is all well and good round release pens but would be well nigh on impossible to set up round these ponds. Sadly this is the way things are and as far as this gloomy old bugger can see are only set to get worse!

 

[patjack]

Good Luck sounds like you are going to need it.

 

[paul k]

I
Only option I can think of would be charging in place with either a solar panel or a small wind turbine like used on yachts that live on a mooring.
The costs then gets much higher than a basic battery fence.

Neil.

Nothing to do with otters but my fishing club installed a solar panel to feed a modest battery set up that runs a sonic "algae buster" that keeps our 2 acre lake clear of floating weed. It's on a scaffold platform just out into the lake so it has to be accessed by boat just to avoid vandals but it works. We occasionally have to swap batteries over and boost the old ones but it's only once or twice a season when the sunshine has not been sufficient. Forget wind turbine as the wind never blows when you need to have power. It didn't cost a lot (less than £1000) but then our members will turn up and help and it sounds like yours are not committed enough to get their hands dirty. If they can't be bothered to help keep a battery charged I think you're fighting a losing battle mate.

 

[fangler]

Nothing to do with otters but my fishing club installed a solar panel to feed a modest battery.......

We've done this before on the pool, it prolongs battery life enough for it to be worth while.