Different make of cases with same load & bullet what effect ?

[Paul at Fechan]

right, no messing no BS and I dragged a witness out in the cold windy evening tonight to make sure all was fair and at 100m!!. I went through my ammo and specifically looked for the rough and old crap that I generally wouldn't use for anything important. The strip of bullets is the bullets fired which L2R has 2x old and rough looking 55gr sierra GK's reloads that are in uncleaned mil surplus cases + 1x tumbled commercial case, loaded with n140. Next are 3x properly made 55gr fmj's in mixed commercial cases again loaded with n140 followed by 1x 70gr soft point with an unknown charge weight or type. Then a 40gr v-max with a duff tip loaded with BL-C2 but an unknown weight of charge with 2x 55gr hollow points to finish off loaded with n140 again.



The zeroing group which was shot in good conditions


yeh looks like I need a click right... won't count that card as the rifle was off. It's actually getting a bit windy now for the proper cards!

Card 1 then:


Card 2 then... damn that last card could have been perfect!




Ah hell it's like a dog pis5ing in snow....

guess you guys win mixing brass and bullets is just nuts

 

[Simjim33]

right, no messing no BS and I dragged a witness out in the cold windy evening tonight to make sure all was fair and at 100m!!. I went through my ammo and specifically looked for the rough and old crap that I generally wouldn't use for anything important. The strip of bullets is the bullets fired which L2R has 2x old and rough looking 55gr sierra GK's reloads that are in uncleaned mil surplus cases + 1x tumbled commercial case, loaded with n140. Next are 3x properly made 55gr fmj's in mixed commercial cases again loaded with n140 followed by 1x 70gr soft point with an unknown charge weight or type. Then a 40gr v-max with a duff tip loaded with BL-C2 but an unknown weight of charge with 2x 55gr hollow points to finish off loaded with n140 again.



The zeroing group which was shot in good conditions


yeh looks like I need a click right... won't count that card as the rifle was off. It's actually getting a bit windy now for the proper cards!

Card 1 then:


Card 2 then... damn that last card could have been perfect!




Ah hell it's like a dog pis5ing in snow....

guess you guys win mixing brass and bullets is just nuts

The defence rests your Honour!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Muir]

right, no messing no BS and I dragged a witness out in the cold windy evening tonight to make sure all was fair and at 100m!!. I went through my ammo and specifically looked for the rough and old crap that I generally wouldn't use for anything important. The strip of bullets is the bullets fired which L2R has 2x old and rough looking 55gr sierra GK's reloads that are in uncleaned mil surplus cases + 1x tumbled commercial case, loaded with n140. Next are 3x properly made 55gr fmj's in mixed commercial cases again loaded with n140 followed by 1x 70gr soft point with an unknown charge weight or type. Then a 40gr v-max with a duff tip loaded with BL-C2 but an unknown weight of charge with 2x 55gr hollow points to finish off loaded with n140 again.



The zeroing group which was shot in good conditions


yeh looks like I need a click right... won't count that card as the rifle was off. It's actually getting a bit windy now for the proper cards!

Card 1 then:


Card 2 then... damn that last card could have been perfect!




Ah hell it's like a dog pis5ing in snow....

guess you guys win mixing brass and bullets is just nuts

Good show!
You have, however, left yourself open to a guy coming on and showing groups half (or better) that size shot with like brass and like bullets, using no more effort than you in your loading other than keeping the brass segregated. I never doubted your claims but I still deem the practice counter productive.~Muir

PS: Why didn't you know the charge on those couple of rounds you listed as being "unknown" charge weights?

 

[see it shoot it]

The defence rests your Honour!!!!!!!!!!

the only things that's rests is the fact the gun didn't shoot a decent group and was very inconsistant,now try loading a batch correctly with proper prep and lets see what it can do.

 

[nicholiath]

the only things that's rests is the fact the gun didn't shoot a decent group and was very inconsistant,now try loading a batch correctly with proper prep and lets see what it can do.

I would be happy with those groups with my sorted brass of one make!

 

[see it shoot it]

I would be happy with those groups with my sorted brass of one make!

well that just shows the difference in people standards and ethics,but on the flip side if one could guarantee those groups I suspose at 100 yards they would be OK but using different brass heads and powder charges isn't really ethical and you cant guarantee you wont get a flyer

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Good show!
You have, however, left yourself open to a guy coming on and showing groups half (or better) that size shot with like brass and like bullets, using no more effort than you in your loading other than keeping the brass segregated. I never doubted your claims but I still deem the practice counter productive.~Muir

PS: Why didn't you know the charge on those couple of rounds you listed as being "unknown" charge weights?

That is very true Muir but when I shot the zero card with four rounds I used ammo I knew was good apart from the aethitic look of them. The sierras went through the same hole and I knew I'd pushed one of the HP's but it made a 1/3 inch group at the centres or just less than 1/2 inch at the outer tear. That's alright for a stalking rifle perhaps?!

The two 'unknown' bullets were actually rejects from many years ago just left at the back of my ammo safe taking up space, the v-max had a slanted tip and the 70gr was in a 'tight' case. The 40gr v-max would have been loaded to the max when made but properly as a batch and the 70gr would have been loaded to a moderate charge similarly but the recipe book from then is hidden away somewhere so I just didn't have the data to hand.

SISI, agreed about the potential to improve but I've moved away from match quality to concentrate on the practical. This will change if I get the rangemaster I want this year or next. Then it will be a different story and for that rifle and ammo I'll be on your side.

 

[see it shoot it]

That is very true Muir but when I shot the zero card with four rounds I used ammo I knew was good apart from the aethitic look of them. The sierras went through the same hole and I knew I'd pushed one of the HP's but it made a 1/3 inch group at the centres or just less than 1/2 inch at the outer tear. That's alright for a stalking rifle perhaps?!

The two 'unknown' bullets were actually rejects from many years ago just left at the back of my ammo safe taking up space, the v-max had a slanted tip and the 70gr was in a 'tight' case. The 40gr v-max would have been loaded to the max when made but properly as a batch and the 70gr would have been loaded to a moderate charge similarly but the recipe book from then is hidden away somewhere so I just didn't have the data to hand.

SISI, agreed about the potential to improve but I've moved away from match quality to concentrate on the practical. This will change if I get the rangemaster I want this year or next. Then it will be a different story and for that rifle and ammo I'll be on your side.

well at least where starting to sing from the same song sheet,but I cant get my head around why take more care loading your ammo if you buy a different rifle ?? surely the same objective is to produce the best consistant accurate ammo no matter what rifle you use,as at the end of the day accuracy kills and a miss placed flier could cause sufferering to what your shooting at,
I also thought we as hunters where all on the same side anyway

 

[Paul at Fechan]

but with my 'hunting' ammo it shoots well so there is no consideration regarding variation on quarry sized targets. A pulled shot though because of my poorer effort imparts a significant variation that is far beyond what good ammo can compensate for. You can see that in the cards, how many centre line shots were there and how many 'pulls'?

Baring in mind that my shots were made in a field with the wind blowing behind and across but from a stable position, if you then put me wet to my nuts up on a moss looking at the deer with blustery winds all around and poor light, the control factors of your loading are so insignificant in these conditions. The quality of your shot comes down to position, determination, patience and above all skill.... My rifle does good work, and most of that is the rifle

 

[see it shoot it]

but with my 'hunting' ammo it shoots well so there is no consideration regarding variation on quarry sized targets. A pulled shot though because of my poorer effort imparts a significant variation that is far beyond what good ammo can compensate for. You can see that in the cards, how many centre line shots were there and how many 'pulls'?

Baring in mind that my shots were made in a field with the wind blowing behind and across but from a stable position, if you then put me wet to my nuts up on a moss looking at the deer with blustery winds all around and poor light, the control factors of your loading are so insignificant in these conditions. The quality of your shot comes down to position, determination, patience and above all skill.... My rifle does good work, and most of that is the rifle

you still havnt answered the question "if you buy a rangmaster why would you feel the need to change your sytle of reloading" ???

 

[Muir]

That is very true Muir but when I shot the zero card with four rounds I used ammo I knew was good apart from the aethitic look of them. The sierras went through the same hole and I knew I'd pushed one of the HP's but it made a 1/3 inch group at the centres or just less than 1/2 inch at the outer tear. That's alright for a stalking rifle perhaps?!

The two 'unknown' bullets were actually rejects from many years ago just left at the back of my ammo safe taking up space, the v-max had a slanted tip and the 70gr was in a 'tight' case. The 40gr v-max would have been loaded to the max when made but properly as a batch and the 70gr would have been loaded to a moderate charge similarly but the recipe book from then is hidden away somewhere so I just didn't have the data to hand.

SISI, agreed about the potential to improve but I've moved away from match quality to concentrate on the practical. This will change if I get the rangemaster I want this year or next. Then it will be a different story and for that rifle and ammo I'll be on your side.

I can understand this. As a one time charge-weigher and gadgeteer (I used to spend hours machining my own reloading tools) I can understand the paring down of efforts. I have been reloading for a very long time and had some strict tutors as I was coming up. Same LOT brass was such a basic part of the process that it has become ingrained in my reloading practice under the heading of "uniformity". Truly, if you start with odd lots of brass, any other efforts are worthless. Like I said, I'm good with it until someone starts weighing charges and fussing over a few thou of OAL. Then I raise the WTF! flag.

I'll tell you one thing, you don't shoot prairiedogs! That walnut sized head sticking out of a hole at 200M would require a higher degree of accuracy! But then, I'm sure you'd make an appropriate adjustment in your loading.~Muir

 

[Bigboab29]

Tried this out last weekend. 20 rounds loaded for me with 5 differnet maunfacturer cases for my 222, same bullet and same powder weight etc and at 100 yards they all group the same.

I actually done this to get an answer to your question as i had been told it would make a significant difference and i was curious but all 20 rounds were in tight spot on groups.

 

[Klenchblaize]

It can make a significant difference if loading for the wee Hornet as I like to get ALL 13 grains LilGun in the case and not over the loading bench!

That said there can’t be too many still using Kynoch cases or RWS come to that. Can there?

Cheers

K

 

[see it shoot it]

I can understand this. As a one time charge-weigher and gadgeteer (I used to spend hours machining my own reloading tools) I can understand the paring down of efforts. I have been reloading for a very long time and had some strict tutors as I was coming up. Same LOT brass was such a basic part of the process that it has become ingrained in my reloading practice under the heading of "uniformity". Truly, if you start with odd lots of brass, any other efforts are worthless. Like I said, I'm good with it until someone starts weighing charges and fussing over a few thou of OAL. Then I raise the WTF! flag.

I'll tell you one thing, you don't shoot prairiedogs! That walnut sized head sticking out of a hole at 200M would require a higher degree of accuracy! But then, I'm sure you'd make an appropriate adjustment in your loading.~Muir

I do that on all loads be it a factory rifle or my custom rifles,when one has actually seen the advantages it soon changes ones mind,consistancy is key to accurate home loads,Iam frightend to tell you about the bullets I use,you would blow a gasket

 

[Axe]

Don't worry too much about it

 

[Paul at Fechan]

you still havnt answered the question "if you buy a rangmaster why would you feel the need to change your sytle of reloading" ???

Because the being of the rifle's purpose holds a certain level of philosophy to me. When I take my stalking rifles out for deer and they are good rifles, the rifle is still just a tool and my focus is to close in on my quarry to a point where the shot is simply a formality. Sure I push shots once in a while and I threw a long one recently at a juvenile with a broken leg but I don't want to be that kind of stalker. The challenge for me in this is not the test of my rig but the working of my craft to beat the deer in it's environment and often there's no need to shoot it if there's stock in the freezer and cull targets are otherwise being met. If the rifle had feelings then that is what would make it happy, working within the safe and comfortable limits of easy shooting.

Now the Rangemaster.... a different creature...

It's designed as a precision machine and owning one is no different to having a classic car or bird of prey in many respects of care and dedication. The purpose of the rifle is to achieve exceptional accuracy and reach out to push the boundaries of what can be achieved with a bullet. It's configuration is not that of a rifle intended for hunting and the desire to own one indicates your intentions are aimed at the potential and not the practical. It is not the same breed of machine as the stalking rifle and the deer is no challenge for it at acceptable ranges on live quarry.

So what am I saying?

I reload specific to the needs of my working rifle being high quality performance at low cost with minimal fuss and time spend at the bench. I will reload specific to the needs of my Rangemaster when she comes for accuracy which will mean the anal pursuit of that perfect load and performance that can be dialed in with confidence and certainty. But, the needs of each tool are not the same and I will feed them according to what will allow them to perform at the level I feel is best for me baring in mind my time at the bench and expectations and costs.

I certainly didn't put Castrol Edge in my scappy puggy 306 but if I had a Audi R8, I'm sure it would get better than Tesco's cheapo glug.

 

[Simjim33]

Because the being of the rifle's purpose holds a certain level of philosophy to me. When I take my stalking rifles out for deer and they are good rifles, the rifle is still just a tool and my focus is to close in on my quarry to a point where the shot is simply a formality. Sure I push shots once in a while and I threw a long one recently at a juvenile with a broken leg but I don't want to be that kind of stalker. The challenge for me in this is not the test of my rig but the working of my craft to beat the deer in it's environment and often there's no need to shoot it if there's stock in the freezer and cull targets are otherwise being met. If the rifle had feelings then that is what would make it happy, working within the safe and comfortable limits of easy shooting.

Now the Rangemaster.... a different creature...

It's designed as a precision machine and owning one is no different to having a classic car or bird of prey in many respects of care and dedication. The purpose of the rifle is to achieve exceptional accuracy and reach out to push the boundaries of what can be achieved with a bullet. It's configuration is not that of a rifle intended for hunting and the desire to own one indicates your intentions are aimed at the potential and not the practical. It is not the same breed of machine as the stalking rifle and the deer is no challenge for it at acceptable ranges on live quarry.

So what am I saying?

I reload specific to the needs of my working rifle being high quality performance at low cost with minimal fuss and time spend at the bench. I will reload specific to the needs of my Rangemaster when she comes for accuracy which will mean the anal pursuit of that perfect load and performance that can be dialed in with confidence and certainty. But, the needs of each tool are not the same and I will feed them according to what will allow them to perform at the level I feel is best for me baring in mind my time at the bench and expectations and costs.

I certainly didn't put Castrol Edge in my scappy puggy 306 but if I had a Audi R8, I'm sure it would get better than Tesco's cheapo glug.

Amen to that!
But,
Paul, people like SISI just won't get it. Now to be fare SISI might only own one rifle. Which would probebly be something like a AI. Now if that is your stalking rifle as well as your target gun I guess that would explane it.

​Also if indeed that is the case it would also explane a few other things!

 

[see it shoot it]

Amen to that!
But,
Paul, people like SISI just won't get it. Now to be fare SISI might only own one rifle. Which would probebly be something like a AI. Now if that is your stalking rifle as well as your target gun I guess that would explane it.

​Also if indeed that is the case it would also explane a few other things!

3 rifles mate,thats all I need
1x rim rimfire for rabbits
1x 243 AI for fox,vermin and deer
1x7mm wsm for deer,boar and african plains game
all rifles are of a hunting configuration IE light and manageable built to do a job
so what is there to explain ???

 

[see it shoot it]

Because the being of the rifle's purpose holds a certain level of philosophy to me. When I take my stalking rifles out for deer and they are good rifles, the rifle is still just a tool and my focus is to close in on my quarry to a point where the shot is simply a formality. Sure I push shots once in a while and I threw a long one recently at a juvenile with a broken leg but I don't want to be that kind of stalker. The challenge for me in this is not the test of my rig but the working of my craft to beat the deer in it's environment and often there's no need to shoot it if there's stock in the freezer and cull targets are otherwise being met. If the rifle had feelings then that is what would make it happy, working within the safe and comfortable limits of easy shooting.

Now the Rangemaster.... a different creature...

It's designed as a precision machine and owning one is no different to having a classic car or bird of prey in many respects of care and dedication. The purpose of the rifle is to achieve exceptional accuracy and reach out to push the boundaries of what can be achieved with a bullet. It's configuration is not that of a rifle intended for hunting and the desire to own one indicates your intentions are aimed at the potential and not the practical. It is not the same breed of machine as the stalking rifle and the deer is no challenge for it at acceptable ranges on live quarry.

So what am I saying?

I reload specific to the needs of my working rifle being high quality performance at low cost with minimal fuss and time spend at the bench. I will reload specific to the needs of my Rangemaster when she comes for accuracy which will mean the anal pursuit of that perfect load and performance that can be dialed in with confidence and certainty. But, the needs of each tool are not the same and I will feed them according to what will allow them to perform at the level I feel is best for me baring in mind my time at the bench and expectations and costs.

I certainly didn't put Castrol Edge in my scappy puggy 306 but if I had a Audi R8, I'm sure it would get better than Tesco's cheapo glug.

so you throw loads togeather for your T3 but will take time and care for the rangemaster ?? a gun is a gun mate no matter what make it is,A T3
is capable of exceptional accuracy IF you load it correctly so I still cxant see the difference,unless your not confident with the T3 to load it and push it to whats its well capable of

 

[Paul at Fechan]

I know what I'm capable of, but the silverware in a box in the garage at my mums house says it all. I don't need awards or trophies on show to prove anything and the only head I have ever put on a plaque was the first roe I shot from the woodland I bought up in Sutherland. Maybe it isn't easy to understand but target shooting and the hunting of quarry can't be compared in the terms you are trying to cross over. Why push? there's nothing to better?

A gun is not just a gun. It is a very specialised machine that is carefully tweaked to an end. I can't get you to understand what you are not able to accept because it's more philosophy than a set of commands. A bullet will not make a poor shot good and like I've tried to explain, the environmental variables that effect everything from the firers position, to the variations in cross winds across extended glades as well as the fitness, emotional anxiety and heart rate prior to a shot leaving the rifle absolutely destroy the potential of a bullet to correct the imperfections of a well intended shot.

I can't disagree that the finest ammo that could be made is better than ammo that is just 'ok' but then at what point of accuracy and stalking craft does a bullet's fine end potential to group on paper make a deer any less or more dead. Unless perhaps at excessive range? There's nothing to prove either way in this. I made my point without any doubt and perhaps if I used your reloading strategy I could do better.... but only on paper. That's not what those rifles are for, and certainly not my time spent with them.