Colour and Tracking

[Wolverine]

Colour does not make a dog work....full stop.
Good worker,KC reg,no health issues-looks nothing like the breed-it should not be bred from.
I do know keepers that deliberately cross and sell accidental pups-so don't say they don't,they do.
Just like Joe Bloggs will.
So your original post Tony of it doesn't matter what a dog looks like is wrong when you take breeding into the mix.
A beautiful coloured dog that fits breed standard,that works very well,no health issues is what should be bred from.KC reg obviously as well.
Not just ANY good working dog.
Conformation is an important part of the make up of a breed to say it matters not is a bit blinkered,especially when you consider what has happened in the past with labs,springers and cockers.
Even wires to a certain extent.

 

[Paul 600]

A registerd dog of any breed will have conformation or breed standard rules. Size, weight colour etc. Dogs that don't conform should not be bread from for the good of the breed. If you breed out of the standard you change the breed!

 

[Wolverine]

A registerd dog of any breed will have conformation or breed standard rules. Size, weight colour etc. Dogs that don't conform should not be bread from for the good of the breed. If you breed out of the standard you change the breed!

Exactly-no matter how good a worker or how healthy the dog is or if its KC registered it matters......

 

[cookingfat]

Colour does not make a dog work....full stop.
Good worker,KC reg,no health issues-looks nothing like the breed-it should not be bred from.
I do know keepers that deliberately cross and sell accidental pups-so don't say they don't,they do.
Just like Joe Bloggs will.
So your original post Tony of it doesn't matter what a dog looks like is wrong when you take breeding into the mix.
A beautiful coloured dog that fits breed standard,that works very well,no health issues is what should be bred from.KC reg obviously as well.
Not just ANY good working dog.
Conformation is an important part of the make up of a breed to say it matters not is a bit blinkered,especially when you consider what has happened in the past with labs,springers and cockers.
Even wires to a certain extent.

all good points George, but who do you think should say what should be breed with what?

you must know a lot of bad people if you know that many who breed accidentally.

 

[Wolverine]

People,I feel,are not honest enough at times with their own dogs-eg they aren't critical enough when considering breeding their own dogs-I'm pretty positive you'd agree.
Not bad people Tony-some misguided ones who don't know any better.example-mother to son accidental mating three times now.....I mean come on....thats not bad or misguided-it's stupidity.
Pups all sold.
​Its the deliberate ones that need sorting.

 

[cookingfat]

line breeding in my mind is bad, but it go's on and its aloud by the powers to be,

now I do know a few who talk up there dogs ability to work and should not be breeding from them, but if they could prove there ability to work and they where KC reg, no health problems and could be any colour then what's the problem.

George you still haven't said who should be saying what should breed with what in the UK?

 

[Wolverine]

Where's the line breeding Tony....that was accidental matings.
Your not listening Tony-breed standard.....a breed is a breed for a reason,that is the way the dog is-size,shape,yes even colour.
In the UK it is a mitigated disaster as there is nothing to say that should not be bred with this,that is a very big part of the problem.
If you want a name for someone to say this should not be bred.......well not you-every dog will soon be sky blue.
If it were me-red or tartan.....

Colour is part of breed standard-if a dog is black when it should be yellow then it should not be bred-no matter how good a worker....it's not part of the breed standard.

Now-you tell the KC that-they won't give two hoots anyway as long as they can get the registration money.

Now answer this Tony-why do labs look like whippets nowadays?
Why are some springers smaller than some cockers?
Why do BGS in the UK look so different to one another?
Same with HS in UK-all look different.
Why should black BGS not be bred from?
Why does colour matter within a breed standard?
Why does a breed standard matter?

 

[countrryboy]

The biggest problems in the UK is most folk can't stand back and take a look at there dog/breed impartially, most folk think all there bitches are great and will all help there chosen breed go forward so bred from them, when in most cases would be far better buying a pup in from decent working stock. And to make matters worse, line it to a top fashionable stud dog with very little homework as to wot positives or negatives that stud dog has and wether it is compatable with bitches pros/cons and produce pups with the right temperment, althou it is a lottery but u have to try ur best to push things in ur favour

Althou i would say just because a gundog is badly trained doesn't mean it should not be breed from, if it has a lot off natural ability not it's fault its handler is poor, whereas many of the pro gundog trainers are taking potentially poorer dogs and due to their natural training talent are really getting 100% out of dogs with less natural ability than some of the poorer trianed dogs

Another massive problem is money, too many folk breeding liters for cash as well as using stud dogs to often esp in small gene pools.


Was just speaking to a good hpr trainer/breeder today and got on about this subject, says far too many sh*t dogs being breed from, recently had a phonecall asking for advice on a mating, knows both dogs, both are very poor examples off the breed and poorly trained, as well as 1 has a sheep killing problem and the worst bit is brother and sister out same litter owner was surprised it was too close

Dog breeding in this country is totally f**ked up and will only get worse and esp in the last 30yrs, with all the advances in health testing it should be gettin better, but most gundog breeds were in far better shape when only breed locally between beating line dogs on local estates so u had fairly local gene pools with the odd picker up getting some fresh FT blood in from further away. Now everything is related to everything

Dode ur as well doing wot ur doing and have f**k all to do with KC reg with the HS if u can, they will ruin them totally as a working breed very quickly, if they favour 1 colour/look over another u could very easily have colour making a difference as too many dogs of a certain look/colour bred with no interest in its actual working ability.

 

[6pointer]

I think a white HS would look really smart and in a wood it would be easy to see no need for flashing light collars and bells. Now i have seen a black BMH and while i was taken aback christ it was a nice dog and according to the owner it was a great tracker so where is the problem.
Colour matters as does what is being shown people looking for dogs will look at what won what. The dog that is the top winner will be the top stud dog and will breed with many bitches no matter there or his working ability. As a new breed in the KC show world BMH will be judge by many different types of judges . Lots will not have a f in clue. So they will pick last weeks winner so they don't make an ass of himself thinking that if one judge picked it then it must be ok!!! Time to look at what will be the most prominent dogs in the uk and will they be the best or jsy the best on the day because there were no other,s??

 

[Wolverine]

The biggest problems in the UK is most folk can't stand back and take a look at there dog/breed impartially, most folk think all there bitches are great and will all help there chosen breed go forward so bred from them, when in most cases would be far better buying a pup in from decent working stock. And to make matters worse, line it to a top fashionable stud dog with very little homework as to wot positives or negatives that stud dog has and wether it is compatable with bitches pros/cons and produce pups with the right temperment, althou it is a lottery but u have to try ur best to push things in ur favour

Althou i would say just because a gundog is badly trained doesn't mean it should not be breed from, if it has a lot off natural ability not it's fault its handler is poor, whereas many of the pro gundog trainers are taking potentially poorer dogs and due to their natural training talent are really getting 100% out of dogs with less natural ability than some of the poorer trianed dogs

Another massive problem is money, too many folk breeding liters for cash as well as using stud dogs to often esp in small gene pools.


Was just speaking to a good hpr trainer/breeder today and got on about this subject, says far too many sh*t dogs being breed from, recently had a phonecall asking for advice on a mating, knows both dogs, both are very poor examples off the breed and poorly trained, as well as 1 has a sheep killing problem and the worst bit is brother and sister out same litter owner was surprised it was too close

Dog breeding in this country is totally f**ked up and will only get worse and esp in the last 30yrs, with all the advances in health testing it should be gettin better, but most gundog breeds were in far better shape when only breed locally between beating line dogs on local estates so u had fairly local gene pools with the odd picker up getting some fresh FT blood in from further away. Now everything is related to everything

Dode ur as well doing wot ur doing and have f**k all to do with KC reg with the HS if u can, they will ruin them totally as a working breed very quickly, if they favour 1 colour/look over another u could very easily have colour making a difference as too many dogs of a certain look/colour bred with no interest in its actual working ability.

Spot on.....Countrryboy-that's the best post on this threadIt's true as well
Davie-Im ignoring youNow your talking sense Davie after you've added that bit

 

[6pointer]

George i am not surprised your post are very contentious tonight time to take your HRT me thinks.

 

[Wolverine]

Not that age yet....

 

[cookingfat]

Ok if colour,size and breed standards are so important how does that make then better than others that have proven there ability to work?
Also George like all good politicians you have avoided my question by asking another, so I will ask again who or what body should be responsible for saying who breeds with who?

 

[Jagare]

Whilst the KC at the top of the pile in the dog world in the UK I can't see how all the blame can be laid at there door for the state that the modern working Lab or springer finds it self in at the moment. They are what they have become because of the trialing world. I was shocked when i whatched a spaniel trial a couple of years ago. Tiny white spaniels with **** poor coats that gave no protection against the cold or thick cover. The problem i think, is that trialing has become a sport in its own right and many who trial there lab or spaniel will never work them in the shooting field.
I notice the same thing in the trialing world here in Sweden.

We have it a bit better in Sweden with the SKK being very hunter friendly.

Now it OK for us who have had dogs for 40+ years to go off on one about Bavs or Hano's but the thing that i thought when i do the Dogs for deer days in the UK is that the people on the course have at least had a gun dog of some discription before. Not true. Many people who come into stalking have had very little or no previous gundog experience. There will alway be idiot breeder willing to sell too them for a fast £
In a way Bavarians are a victim of there own success with people think that just by getting a Bav or Hano's you get an instant tracking dog.
As i say to people on the Dfd days , that if you don't train your chosen dog not matter what breed you get you end up with just another any old dog. The gundog, tracking world has penty of, another any old dog.

 

[cookingfat]

Whilst the KC at the top of the pile in the dog world in the UK I can't see how all the blame can be laid at there door for the state that the modern working Lab or springer finds it self in at the moment. They are what they have become because of the trialing world. I was shocked when i whatched a spaniel trial a couple of years ago. Tiny white spaniels with **** poor coats that gave no protection against the cold or thick cover. The problem i think, is that trialing has become a sport in its own right and many who trial there lab or spaniel will never work them in the shooting field.
I notice the same thing in the trialing world here in Sweden.

We have it a bit better in Sweden with the SKK being very hunter friendly.

Now it OK for us who have had dogs for 40+ years to go off on one about Bavs or Hano's but the thing that i thought when i do the Dogs for deer days in the UK is that the people on the course have at least had a gun dog of some discription before. Not true. Many people who come into stalking have had very little or no previous gundog experience. There will alway be idiot breeder willing to sell too them for a fast £
In a way Bavarians are a victim of there own success with people think that just by getting a Bav or Hano's you get an instant tracking dog.
As i say to people on the Dfd days , that if you don't train your chosen dog not matter what breed you get you end up with just another any old dog. The gundog, tracking world has penty of, another any old dog.

Spot on Alan,

very wise words.

 

[widu]

Well said, Jagare,
As you say we can not blame the KC alone, for the state of some dog breeds. It is a problem that belongs at every dog owners door, and some who see a dog purely as a money earner. This also in a way answers CF's post, who should be allowed to breed dogs, well in a perfect world, each working breed would have it's own breed soc' who would oversee all matings and strictly maintain the working ability with proven working testing + strict health testing of the breed. Well that ain't going to happen !! so that is when it comes back to us the dog owner! and here we are lots of good dogs , lots of rubbish, lots of healthy dogs and lots with serious health and lack of working ability. People see dog trialers , and must have a dog like theirs. then there is the celebrity deer stalkers, who say you must have a BGS, or Kopoff, or Slovakian Whatever !! and out folks go and get one. Usually they don't do any checks as they like the look of said type of dog, then after paying an inflated price feel they must as soon as they can breed with it .Again a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and in the dog world it is always the dog that suffers.
What I do find as I talk to folks with dogs , and it surprises me constantly, how little they know and understand about dogs, and training in particular.
Bottom line if there is a problem with bad breeding practices then it down to us .

 

[Wolverine]

Now Tony-that answered your question?
Jagare and Widu are both absolutely bang on.
Nowhere have I said colour,size and breed standards makes a dog better than a good worker......
Clean your ears out,waken up and listen......
Its the whole package that is needed.
As for answering your question-Widu has answered it for me.
Now answer mine Tony.......the blame for the state of working dogs in the UK is?
You know my thoughts on testing Tony......who wanted an easy test and who wanted a test that was worth something.......then you have the neck to actually insinuate that I don't care about the working ability of a dog.
Think about how ironic that is.....
You are saying working ability is all.
Prove it then and let's have the test a lot harder than the easy one you want.
Just because you believe any kind of dog,shape,size,breed will do and any handler doesn't make that or you right.
Jumping up and insinuating I'm blinkered in my beliefs is way off the mark.
Lets have a test that's actually worth having and dogs that are true to type.
They are out there and those dogs should be encouraged to work for the improvement and betterment of a breed.
Now Tony-working ability is the most important part of the puzzle,to say conformation is not,like you say,is part of the problem in the UK.

 

[cookingfat]

Fair enough George, it would seem we both wont the same things but you only wont them on your terms,
I have agreed with you and paul that the training standards have to be high to achieve what we are both trying to promote in the uk,
I have never said let in all breeds of dog because some breeds are just not suitable.
I dont think I have insulated you or said you are blinkered and if I have at any time, I am sorry.
now lets try and just promote tracking to a set standard and try and put aside our differences.

Love Tony...!

 

[Wolverine]

Fair enough George, it would seem we both wont the same things but you only wont them on your terms,
I have agreed with you and paul that the training standards have to be high to achieve what we are both trying to promote in the uk,
I have never said let in all breeds of dog because some breeds are just not suitable.
I dont think I have insulated you or said you are blinkered and if I have at any time, I am sorry.
now lets try and just promote tracking to a set standard and try and put aside our differences.

Love Tony...!

It would seem.....you are correct on the promotion front but not on MY terms.
It is you Tony who wants things on your terms-think back to meeting-who came and went the most,basically making things easier-on YOUR terms.
Standards high-the tests are too easy and you say that working ability is everything.....
A set standard is needed but not one which requires little to no training.Just makes a mockery of things.
Not on about the older one either.
I have no differences with you Tony regarding promoting tracking-it's the easiness/standard that I have differences with.......especially when above you say working ability is all and yet it would seem that a test is way too easy,now explain how that makes sense....
Kiss Kiss George

 

[6pointer]

Christ here we have it (The Germans are coming).Thank christ i got a dog from Rudy,s Breeding.But does colour matter. Will a solid red from Georges breeding with low slung leg,s and massive size become the new HS in this country. Or will the more popular (Brindle / Tiger Stripe ) With a longer slightly slender leg be the order of the day. My Guess is the latter because to some colour does matter.
I worked terriers for many many years and while we all could admire a good working terrier. Most had their preference to color.