SA shooter
Well-Known Member
Muzzel up!! But I Know which way I need to point it to next time!!!you and your Hatsan lol
TEH
Whats safest, muzzle up or down ?
mereside
Well-Known Member
not sure how many are actually in either position but I would bet most are loading/unloading with fingers where they shouldn't be and being complacent
PointBlank
Well-Known Member
Exactly, I guarantee most "the gun went off on its own mate" stories are due to operator error than mechanical failure
The deer man
Well-Known Member
Maybe you should read my earlier post and tell that to the young PH in Zimbabwe who had his arm shot off earlier this year from a client who when unslinging his "muzzle up rifle" inadvertently pointed it in the PH's direction when it went off. He got away with losing his livelihood not his life.
I can add that the client was an experienced hunter, like many on here, who thought it better to carry as some on here do!
I believe we never stop learning in life so lets stop for a minute and think, for the sake of others.
csl
Administrator
Which is down to poor handling and muzzle awareness rather than which way up the rifle was, surely?
Rifle on shoulder upside down, with right hand on moderator, so effectively muzzle slightly below horizontal.
Very easy to move should you be in company, very quick to mount on sticks and if you ever slip/trip/fall muzzle naturally points down, constantly aware of muzzle as your hand is on it.
Easy to trap rifle under elbow when glassing.
Very easy to move should you be in company, very quick to mount on sticks and if you ever slip/trip/fall muzzle naturally points down, constantly aware of muzzle as your hand is on it.
Easy to trap rifle under elbow when glassing.
270Buck
Well-Known Member
When I am on my own and when the situation allows, I have my rifle slung so the muzzle is pointed forwards but pointing at 45 degrees up. My eyes will therefore be looking at the same direction of the muzzle.
Some of my ground is open heather that is 3 foot high in places and it us not uncommon to fall over numerous times on a stalk, so muzzle down is clearly no option.
When I am stalking with someone else I carry muzzle up and ALWAYS being conscientious which way the muzzle is pointed.
I also carry my rifle in a slip with a full magazine but no round chambered when stalking on the open hill.
So horses for courses!
cheers
Some of my ground is open heather that is 3 foot high in places and it us not uncommon to fall over numerous times on a stalk, so muzzle down is clearly no option.
When I am stalking with someone else I carry muzzle up and ALWAYS being conscientious which way the muzzle is pointed.
I also carry my rifle in a slip with a full magazine but no round chambered when stalking on the open hill.
So horses for courses!
cheers
Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
No!
Muzzle down tends to stay down due to the effect of gravity. I've NEVER had a muzzle down rifle end up pointing at me. Muzzle up rifles however wander in random directions above the horizontal and invariably end up pointing in someones direction, even if they are up to 5 km's away! If you plug you barrel or shoot yourself in the foot, then you have been negligent in muzzle awareness to yourself and deserve a Darwin award! Pointing your rifle in anyone elses direction is quite simply not acceptable!
MS
PointBlank
Well-Known Member
So, as it seems you have quite an opinion on the situation how do you get on when you are witnessing and the candidate is muzzle up? Also what do you do when you are in a highseat for hours, do you always have the rifle shouldered and pointing at the ground?
stalkinginengland
Well-Known Member
Muzzle down and taped. Always end up looking down one at some point while guiding if it starts muzzle up. Plus I find it much easier to shoulder when needed
liongeorge
Well-Known Member
I can see merits in both methods of carrying and am now going to make an effort to carry mine muzzle down a bit more though there are two points that I would like to make.
Firstly I regularly check my safety on auto pilot whilst stalking, this is not possible with muzzle down.
Seconly a bit of rain or leaf etc on the objective lense is no prob and will not tend to stop you being able to use the scope , on the ocular lense is a real problem , even a small amount makes the scope useless(PS am not a big fan of covers) So another thing going against the muzzle down.
Firstly I regularly check my safety on auto pilot whilst stalking, this is not possible with muzzle down.
Seconly a bit of rain or leaf etc on the objective lense is no prob and will not tend to stop you being able to use the scope , on the ocular lense is a real problem , even a small amount makes the scope useless(PS am not a big fan of covers) So another thing going against the muzzle down.
jamross65
Well-Known Member
Your wrong MS...
Spend some time loading over 20 years at double gun days using shotguns. Then tell me that the danger of where a muzzle points can be eradicated by a particular way a gun is carried or handled. Its always down to the users awareness and this is something half a day on courses should be dedicated to IMO, not just a few minutes effectively.
There are some folk out there who have no clue about where a muzzle is when they stop to spy and lift the shoulders and arms with the Binos, chat, swing the gun off at the end if the days stalking and so on. I've had folk turn towards me with the muzzle down and it's ended up pointing at my knees. The muzzle never ever points straight down and at best I would guess 30deg from vertical. I don't care if its pointed at my face, feet, shoulder, knees its a life changing injury if it goes off.
Its impossible to carry a rifle here without it snagging on cover if pointing down unless its got a barrel of 10" and no moderator. And as for never plugging a barrel, if you've never slipped when out stalking on hidden branches or smooth rocks the ground your on must be very easy. I've gone up in the air before, last season in fact with the muzzle up and at least I knew when I came down and whacked the ground that muzzle was pointing away from the direction of my head and body. Carried down it could easily have been pointing at my feet...
To be honest every time this question appears it irritates me a bit because the actual carrying of the rifle should not matter in some respects, it's having complete muzzle awareness when the rifle is moved from that position, either deliberately to alter the direction the muzzle points in to take a shot, put away, hand to someone that counts as well as the movement of that muzzle by a change in your body movement, a non deliberate movement you can't avoid because of where your walking, stooping down etc.
I was sat in the back of a double cab pick up a few years ago waiting for the under stalker to return after a day helping out on Sika. A paying guest was in the front. As the young lad arrived back the head stalker asked if his rifle was empty. It was pointing at the ground just outside my door, within 1m of where I was sitting but pointing at no-one. It went off showering me in bits of stone from the track, in my eyes, mouth face. The guest started screaming he had been shot. I jumped out to find either a pice if bullet or stone had entered his welly where he sat in the front, gouged through his calf and exited through the roof of the cab. It was a relatively minor injury compared to what could have been.
Rifles with muzzle up only wander about if the person carrying it allows it, just the same as if its pointing down and ends up at my feet or knees. Don't say never happens in the shooting field, because it might just the next time your out.
As others have said, this is poor handling and not something to do with where it was pointed.
In broader terms, even it was directly a consequence of being muzzle up, it tells us nothing - a single instance is not enough to draw a robust conclusion (this is the difference between anecdote and statistics - a distinction many struggle to grasp).
I have no particular conviction, and prefer to carry muzzle up because I find that more comfortable. I will continue to do so until someone presents me with data that shows that the probability that somebody gets hurt after an ND is significantly greater when the muzzle is up. To do this, they would need, at the very least, number of NDs in either configuration and number of these that resulted in injury. And there would have to be a minimum sample size of around 10 of each.
Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
So, as it seems you have quite an opinion on the situation how do you get on when you are witnessing and the candidate is muzzle up? Also what do you do when you are in a highseat for hours, do you always have the rifle shouldered and pointing at the ground?
I don't have a problem with a rifle being carried muzzle up, as long as it stays up and doesn't end up pointing up my nose which it invariably seems to do!
In a highseat I am generally alone and the rifle sits on the rail muzzle up. Many of my high seats are on footpaths as you know so muzzle down is not a safe option until required to shoot.
My opinion comes from having countless rifles carried muzzle up pointing at me and never one which has been carried muzzle down - nothing more.
Some terrain will not allow this, even in Suffolk. I will then generally carry it pointing forward and down. However, if the terrain is so harsh where you cannot stalk without falling about as suggested, it begs the question as to why you would have a round chambered at all?
MS
Pine Marten
Well-Known Member
I once went stalking with SikaJames from this site before I had my own rifle and borrowed his moderated Blaser which has a sizeable moderator on it. He carries it muzzle down, so I did the same. But I found that due to the balance of the thing, it would work its' way towards pointing horizontally forward, especially when I let go of it to use my binoculars. At one point towards the end of the stalk, he pointed out to me that I'd swung the muzzle through where the gamekeeper was approaching us on his quad. I won't be doing that again. Now that said, my rifle has a completely different balance having a short barrel and no moderator. I carry it muzzle up, with a hand on the stock or the non-slip sling. As far as I'm aware, I've never pointed it at anyone, I have much better muzzle control. But I'm used to my rifle, its' length and balance, so that works for me. SikaJames is accustomed to a front-weighted rifle and to controlling the muzzle with his hand on the moderator pointing downwards, which works for him. My only conclusion is that neither way is safer, it's down to the user's muzzle awareness.
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