DSc 2 - Witnessed stalks - Advise please

[Cut+Squirt]

Very often though, the reason that novice stalkers put themselves forward for these qualifications is that they simply do not get considered for available stalking ground without the qualifications as a minimum.

I know from personal experience, as I have contacted a number of members on this forum who have advertised syndicate places within very reasonable proximity to where I live and they simply wont entertain me without a minimum level 1. I have years of experience of fieldsports, am relatively mature and sensible, am the chairman of the Scottish region of a national fieldsport body and have insurance through three separate fieldsport bodies, but the door is firmly shut in my face every time. Consequently I'm sitting my level 1 in the next couple of weeks.

Will this make me a better/safer stalker and more fit for consideration of a syndicate place?? or would being a syndicate member and going out with fellow members to both observe them and have them provide the benefit of their experience be more of a practical benefit??

It is something of a chicken and egg scenario tbh.

I sympathize with you to some degree Mickey, I have a few leases and when looking for prospective syndicate members they always must have a minimum of L1.

This is not something that I personally ask for but something that the forestry companies I lease from state is mandatory. .

Unfortunately in the current health and safety obsessed climate paper qualifications virtually always trump hard won experience on the ground.

 

[49ERIC]

I have just seen this post on the site, so please excuse my being late in responding.

Your AW and some of the comments on here are wrong. You can sign off a partial stalk on an ICR. I would agree with some of the comments by the more experienced stalkers on this thread in that you should speak with your AW and also your Assessor and seek a partial sign off for the stalk on the Muntjac.

There is no mistake on the AW's side of things as we (as in all AW's ) are all kept up to speed with currant criteria, and I suggest your AW takes note of this as he is in the wrong.
I would look for another AW.



Rega
Sikamalc AW.

mmm Thinking can one not use, say three or more different AWs to gain the criteria , needed , that might be far better for the Assessor , and could also help stop any abuse of the system by the AWs or the applicant?? well its just that this system could be very open to all sorts of carry On's especially nod nod wink wink or the other end a personality clash ,

 

[Wingy]

mmm Thinking can one not use, say three or more different AWs to gain the criteria , needed , that might be far better for the Assessor , and could also help stop any abuse of the system by the AWs or the applicant?? well its just that this system could be very open to all sorts of carry On's especially nod nod wink wink or the other end a personality clash ,

That's exactly the reason that my AW would only sign off 2 ICR's even though I stalked and culled 3 deer with him all as per DSC2 assessment standard / requirements. I was aware of this before I started as we sat and discussed each other's expectations before hand.
I had to use another AW to complete my 3rd ICR so everything was transparent. Something I completely agree with
Wingy

 

[SussexFallow]

I think it should be mandatory that a maximum of 2 ICRs can be signed off by an AW on a portfolio.

 

[sikamalc]

mmm Thinking can one not use, say three or more different AWs to gain the criteria , needed , that might be far better for the Assessor , and could also help stop any abuse of the system by the AWs or the applicant?? well its just that this system could be very open to all sorts of carry On's especially nod nod wink wink or the other end a personality clash ,

If any abuse or illegality is undertaken by any AW they stand to be struck off every assessment centre in the UK. That's what we were told when we undertook our training. And rightly so as far as I am concerned.
All Level 2 candidates are given a list of Aw's and you do not need 3 different Aw's to complete your portfolio. But the choice is up to the candidate.

 

[Tom_Ov]

Absolutely.

Fortunately one need only peruse the posts on SD to appreciate the level of sensitivity, cultural awareness and well-rounded inter-personal and man management skills of the stalking community at large, and realise that putting Candidates at rest should be no problem.

willie_gunn

Only just saw this. Snork.

 

[Pointer]

UPDATE:

For those interested [see above thread], I attempted to recover some of my costs from the stalking supplier. They undertook an investigation and have confirmed to me in writing that in relation to the 3 deer I stalked [Not 1 No. as previously noted] the AW:

1) ‘Could have maximised opportunities to gather evidence’
2) ‘Was at fault for not recording the relevant evidence’.
3) ‘Did not follow the DMQ Guidance’

Despite me clearly stating to the supplier that I had no argument with the AW and did not to want get the AW in to any form of trouble [I got on very well with the AW and provided a tip] I did feel it only fair that I be able to recover some of my costs. The stalking supplier has refused to provide a refund despite being a significant sized organisation with no lack of funding.

I would not have booked the stalking in the first instance if I thought the person appointed to undertake the AW role did not fully understand their role, on this basis I feel that it is unreasonable for the stalking supplier [who arranged the AW] to refuse to refund me the cost of the stalking.

I would be interested to know if SD members if in my position believe it to be reasonable to request the cost of the stalking fee considering the significant size and financial wealth of the stalking supplier. YES/NO?
Cheers
P

 

[Flyer4u0]

I would have thought that any organisation that admitted it wasn't quite right would be forthcoming with some sort of redress. Ie; a rerun or partial rerun. Not necessarily money back but some help towards achieving your objective.
I would like to know which organisation it is but I know it would not be published.
good luck in your quest.

 

[2130martin]

UPDATE:

For those interested [see above thread], I attempted to recover some of my costs from the stalking supplier. They undertook an investigation and have confirmed to me in writing that in relation to the 3 deer I stalked [Not 1 No. as previously noted] the AW:

1) ‘Could have maximised opportunities to gather evidence’
2) ‘Was at fault for not recording the relevant evidence’.
3) ‘Did not follow the DMQ Guidance’

Despite me clearly stating to the supplier that I had no argument with the AW and did not to want get the AW in to any form of trouble [I got on very well with the AW and provided a tip] I did feel it only fair that I be able to recover some of my costs. The stalking supplier has refused to provide a refund despite being a significant sized organisation with no lack of funding.

I would not have booked the stalking in the first instance if I thought the person appointed to undertake the AW role did not fully understand their role, on this basis I feel that it is unreasonable for the stalking supplier [who arranged the AW] to refuse to refund me the cost of the stalking.

I would be interested to know if SD members if in my position believe it to be reasonable to request the cost of the stalking fee considering the significant size and financial wealth of the stalking supplier. YES/NO?
Cheers
P

You should seek a refund for the service you didn't receive,was that the stalk or the witness????

 

[Apache]

What was the understanding when you booked?

It's not uncommon to book days stalking with someone who happens to be an AW. Frequently they will either witness for free or charge a small fee for the extra work. I know some AWs load the kill fee to cover this time.

Personally I've always found the finding deer and shooting them bit the hardest. There doesn't seem much point signing off that you know how the safety catch works and can creep about in the woods. At the best without stalking in to a deer you could sign off 1.1-1.4. There is no point, that I can see. You will have to shoot 3 deer and you might as well claim all the points on those!

 

[Pointer]

What was the understanding when you booked?

It's not uncommon to book days stalking with someone who happens to be an AW. Frequently they will either witness for free or charge a small fee for the extra work. I know some AWs load the kill fee to cover this time.

Personally I've always found the finding deer and shooting them bit the hardest. There doesn't seem much point signing off that you know how the safety catch works and can creep about in the woods. At the best without stalking in to a deer you could sign off 1.1-1.4. There is no point, that I can see. You will have to shoot 3 deer and you might as well claim all the points on those!

At the right time of year and in the right location (Deer Park?) you have an increased opportunity to shoot 3 deer in one session. By doing this you do away with the cost of the other stalks (which in this example should have been signed off). On this basis I disagree with your comment about not signing off the completed stalks up to the point of pulling the trigger. DMQ Guidance says that this should be done, I was not given this option.

Would you be happy paying out another circa £700 if you did not need to had the stalking provider provided the service you had paid for?

 

[Apache]

I can see why you are disappointed. I went through a run of something like 12 paid stalks with all of them being a blank! I wouldn't want to go shooting somewhere that had deer tethered to a post. I shoot lots of sick things and get no pleasure from it whatsoever.

This is why I ask what was the deal. For example Jelen offer a scheme where they say you will get three deer over a weekend. If they promise you 3 deer and they don't provide you with 3 shootable deer (if you miss three then I'd argue they did their bit) then I would be looking at proportional money back. If I booked three days with a chap who told me his success rathe was 1 in 3 and I was going out for 6 stalks and didn't shoot a deer then I'd put it down to bad luck. I see those as two very different scenarios.

The first four ICRs are:

1.1 Carry out work safely in line with health and safety requirements.
Safe working practices demonstrated.
Suitable clothing worn.
Appropriate safety equipment carried.
Observation supported by questioning
1.2 Determine the cull animal required.
Species, sex, age group of animals that are intended to be culled.
Questioning
1.3 Select firearm and ammunition to meet requirements of planned cull.
Suitable rifle calibre and sufficient ammunition.
Observation supported by questioning
1.4 Prepare tools, equipment and firearm into a safe and serviceable condition suitable for culling activities.
Tools may include: binoculars, knives, ATVs and high seats.
Observation supported by questioning

I know it might be nice to get some ink in the portfolio, but there is just no point writing them up, as you will have to do them on the next stalks that count - automatically!

What did the person promise you?

 

[Pointer]

Stalking was NOT with Jelen Deer Management. I have spoken with them since and am very impressed with what they offer and the professionalism of their comms.

The point is that the provider arranged the AW and they then acknowledged in writing that the same AW failed to comply with DMQ Guidance. This failure cost me money, as simple as that. If you paid to do your driving test and the driving instructor didn't know the Highway Code and you subsequently had to pay for other tests, would you be happy?

The issue is not about the difficulties of stalking deer and the chances of each stalk resulting in a cull; it is about an organisation admitting they were wrong but failing to redress the loss.

 

[Cris]

This is a worrying thread as it would imply that the so called standard of the DMQ level 2 is not what it should be due to a lack of quality control of the so called AW'S who should all know the rules or guidance as has been said. It should be a standard no matter who the assessor is full stop. Go to one AW and it should be exactly the same as the AW Down the road. All aspects including cost should in fact be exactly the same. DMQ should be all over this kind of poor standard of there own award system.

 

[sikamalc]

I will add something to this conversation, and it is purely my opinion and is not aimed at anyone.

I do see and find that some people are and have become an AW, and to my mind are woefully not experienced enough. But because they have passed Level 2 and two references they are allowed to become AW's.

I also strongly disagree with someone passing their Level 2 in an enclosed park, as it does not in my humble opinion show the candidate can stalk wild deer in an open environment.

Many may disagree with this and it is my opinion. And as I have said before if you are not happy with your AW and you think there is an issue then report it. The more open this becomes the better the system will become.

 

[2130martin]

Stalking was NOT with Jelen Deer Management. I have spoken with them since and am very impressed with what they offer and the professionalism of their comms.

The point is that the provider arranged the AW and they then acknowledged in writing that the same AW failed to comply with DMQ Guidance. This failure cost me money, as simple as that. If you paid to do your driving test and the driving instructor didn't know the Highway Code and you subsequently had to pay for other tests, would you be happy?

The issue is not about the difficulties of stalking deer and the chances of each stalk resulting in a cull; it is about an organisation admitting they were wrong but failing to redress the loss.

Have you contacted your level two assessor about this??
You say you were happy with the AW and tipped him............why?

 

[Pointer]

UPDATE:

For those interested [see above thread], I attempted to recover some of my costs from the stalking supplier. They undertook an investigation and have confirmed to me in writing that in relation to the 3 deer I stalked [Not 1 No. as previously noted] the AW:

1) ‘Could have maximised opportunities to gather evidence’
2) ‘Was at fault for not recording the relevant evidence’.
3) ‘Did not follow the DMQ Guidance’

Despite me clearly stating to the supplier that I had no argument with the AW and did not to want get the AW in to any form of trouble [I got on very well with the AW and provided a tip] I did feel it only fair that I be able to recover some of my costs. The stalking supplier has refused to provide a refund despite being a significant sized organisation with no lack of funding.

I would not have booked the stalking in the first instance if I thought the person appointed to undertake the AW role did not fully understand their role, on this basis I feel that it is unreasonable for the stalking supplier [who arranged the AW] to refuse to refund me the cost of the stalking.

I would be interested to know if SD members if in my position believe it to be reasonable to request the cost of the stalking fee considering the significant size and financial wealth of the stalking supplier. YES/NO?
Cheers
P

Thanks for all responses so far, but no clear Yes/No answers to question yet.

 

[2130martin]

Thanks for all responses so far, but no clear Yes/No answers to question yet.

Seems to me that your issue is with the AW not the stalking supplier,so NO

 

[Overlay]

The experience the OP is something that can be avoided by using different AW's

Personally I encourage a DSC 2 candidate to have a stalk on the pretence of a L2 stalk, it helps to ease any nerves and can help iron out any potential problems, and to use, if possible, three separate AW's, it helps to ensure the candidate is capable and they can plan an evening and a morning stalk on a different piece of ground each time two stalks can give you a good opportunity to grass a beast and complete the requirement from beginning to end.

i don't charge for AW services myself, if it is a distance a little fuel money would come in handy, but absolutely not essential.
The AW's who were with me through my L2 wouldn't take a penny for their services, I keep to the same. Pay back time to pass on a hand to stalkers looking to improve

My thoughts are that the stalk payment and the carcase money is an excellent payment scheme for the stalk provider as it is.

splitting the cost as well helps the whole portfolio a little more easier to afford. It is after all a learning curve and planning the three events will make it a lot easier

in a nutshell. Pre L2 to smooth out the wrinkles and use at least two separate AW's my thoughts it is the best way to go

phil

 

[timbrayford]

I will add something to this conversation, and it is purely my opinion and is not aimed at anyone.

I do see and find that some people are and have become an AW, and to my mind are woefully not experienced enough. But because they have passed Level 2 and two references they are allowed to become AW's.

I also strongly disagree with someone passing their Level 2 in an enclosed park, as it does not in my humble opinion show the candidate can stalk wild deer in an open environment.

Many may disagree with this and it is my opinion. And as I have said before if you are not happy with your AW and you think there is an issue then report it. The more open this becomes the better the system will become.

Appreciating that sikamalc is widely experienced in deer stalking, and certainly far more so than I am, I cannot entirely agree with him.

A park stalk saves the unfortunate candidate from the "armed ramble" experience that the OP has suffered.

When I did DSC2 some of my stalks were within a deer park and some outside. The deer that I shot within the park presented no more and no less a challenge than the wild deer that I have stalked elsewhere in the New Forest and Dorset.

If I remember the details correctly witnessed park stalks are only acceptable if the deer are able to display true wild habits.

atb Tim.