RFD to RFD transfers and FAC requirements

[Cloudhopper]

Ordered some reloading components (including expanding bullets) from a gunshot in Wiltshire and had them transferred to an RFD closer to home. I was expecting to collect them from the receiving RFD and that he would enter them on my certificate.

Had a quick look at my FAC (new format) earlier today and in the Guidance notes it clearly states that it's up to the RFD that sends them out (i.e. the Seller) to fill in Table 2 on the certificate, not the RFD that hands the goods over. It was crystal clear but I phoned BASC and they confirmed this is indeed the case and the FAC is now in the post.

The gunshop is just as surprised as I am.

Has there been a recent change in the rules or has this always been the case?

 

[Eric the Red]

Surely the delivering RFD is acting as agent for the seller. Your local RFD is carrying out the due diligence on your entitlement as it will be in the records of having been transferred to them. It happens fine with rifles. RFD's over here (and in Essex when I was there, but there's been quite a shake up in Essex recently.....) wouldn't even enter such components on the FAC (rightly or wrongly).

 

[Cloudhopper]

Surely the delivering RFD is acting as agent for the seller. Your local RFD is carrying out the due diligence on your entitlement as it will be in the records of having been transferred to them. It happens fine with rifles. RFD's over here (and in Essex when I was there, but there's been quite a shake up in Essex recently.....) wouldn't even enter such components on the FAC (rightly or wrongly).

That's how I imagined it would work. I'm not sure when the face to face requirement was introduced but I think it's fairly recent. Perhaps it doesn't quite fit in with the wording of the 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Act with respect to "the Seller".

 

[EMcC]

Once the RFD that had the stock you required has sent them to your local RFD, the original RFD does not have them, your local RFD does.
So when you collet them from your local RFD you are buying them from him so he is the seller and is required to do any paper work required, if any.
Here is one way of explaining it in a roundabout way.
UK importers bring licenced items into UK and then distribute them to local RFDs who bring them onto their books.
So you could say, when you buy these licenced items, you are actually buying them from the UK importer through the local RFD who is the end seller and responsible for recording details of such sales.

 

[Cloudhopper]

The exact wording:

Guidance to anybody who sells, hires, gives or lends firearms and/or ammunition to the holder of this certificate:

Para 4
"If you are selling a firearm and/or ammunition which will be sent to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person, you should complete the table(s) and notify the Police of the transaction concerning the firearm (as in 2 above). The dealer who actually hands over the firearm and/or ammunition should not complete the table(s) or notify the Police (except in circumstances that may require investigation as above).

Is it me?

 

[Eric the Red]

The exact wording:

Guidance to anybody who sells, hires, gives or lends firearms and/or ammunition to the holder of this certificate:

Para 4
"If you are selling a firearm and/or ammunition which will be sent to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person, you should complete the table(s) and notify the Police of the transaction concerning the firearm (as in 2 above). The dealer who actually hands over the firearm and/or ammunition should not complete the table(s) or notify the Police (except in circumstances that may require investigation as above).

Is it me?

Just went and checked mine - and No, it's not you....Mine now says the same.

 

[smullery]

Think it has said this for a long time, it's just that common practice has ignored it and gone down the usual route.
Face to face does the trick and the end result is the same.

Stan

 

[Dalua]

Once the RFD that had the stock you required has sent them to your local RFD, the original RFD does not have them, your local RFD does.
So when you collet them from your local RFD you are buying them from him so he is the seller and is required to do any paper work required, if any.
Here is one way of explaining it in a roundabout way.
UK importers bring licenced items into UK and then distribute them to local RFDs who bring them onto their books.
So you could say, when you buy these licenced items, you are actually buying them from the UK importer through the local RFD who is the end seller and responsible for recording details of such sales.

Not 'who has them': rather 'who owns them'.

I bought a rifle from a distant RFD. I arranged the purchase on the 'phone, sent him a cheque and my FAC. With the cheque I had paid for the rifle, which therefore became mine; and he entered it onto my FAC. FAC and rifle arrived at local RFD, and I collected both. The FAC allowed the RFD to check who I was, and that I was the lawful owner of the rifle he was handing me.

Your thing about the importers is probably clearer if you think likewise about who owns the rifle you're buying.
The RFD from whom you bought a rifle which he had bought from the importer is selling you something he owned.
The RFD who has received a rifle which you've already bought from another person or RFD is actually just giving you something you already own. It should therefore already be entered on your FAC by the person/RFD who sold it to you.

That's my take on it, anyhow.

 

[EMcC]

Not 'who has them': rather 'who owns them'.
I bought a rifle from a distant RFD. I arranged the purchase on the 'phone, sent him a cheque and my FAC. With the cheque I had paid for the rifle, which therefore became mine; and he entered it onto my FAC. FAC and rifle arrived at local RFD, and I collected both. The FAC allowed the RFD to check who I was, and that I was the lawful owner of the rifle he was handing me.
Your thing about the importers is probably clearer if you think likewise about who owns the rifle you're buying.
The RFD from whom you bought a rifle which he had bought from the importer is selling you something he owned.
The RFD who has received a rifle which you've already bought from another person or RFD is actually just giving you something you already own. It should therefore already be entered on your FAC by the person/RFD who sold it to you.That's my take on it, anyhow.

Yes that sounds reasonable too but I wouldn't like the idea of my FC being out of my control for so long.
Another thing too is, if your local dealer hasn't got a firearm or ammo that you require and he gets it from the importer for you, it is the same as transfers of other items between RFD's on your behalf.
Once they have it in their possession they bring it onto their books so legally they then become the legal owners and you then rock up and buy it off of them.
That's the way I see it and have worked this system not so long ago when I had a gun clearout.

 

[Dalua]

Another thing too is, if your local dealer hasn't got a firearm or ammo that you require and he gets it from the importer for you, it is the same as transfers of other items between RFD's on your behalf.

If your RFD orders rifle or ammunition from the wholesaler, whether to sell it to you specifically or not, he buys it from that importer/wholesaler and becomes the owner. If he then sells it to you, he writes it on to your FAC.

It is therefore not at all the same as a transfer of an item that you've bought from another RFD or person. He doesn't own that item - you do. So it should be on your FAC already.
The receiving RFD is no more the lawful owner of it than he would be the owner of a rifle you'd left with him for repair.

Possession is not ownership!!

 

[smullery]

If your RFD orders rifle or ammunition from the wholesaler, whether to sell it to you specifically or not, he buys it from that importer/wholesaler and becomes the owner. If he then sells it to you, he writes it on to your FAC.

It is therefore not at all the same as a transfer of an item that you've bought from another RFD or person. He doesn't own that item - you do. So it should be on your FAC already.
The receiving RFD is no more the lawful owner of it than he would be the owner of a rifle you'd left with him for repair.

Possession is not ownership!!

Exactly. Just like "people" think that not having your FAC on your possession is the same as not having it in your possession!

Stan

 

[EMcC]

When an RFD takes a firearm in for repair it goes in his work book, he does not take it on as held stock and you do not relinquish it's possession.
When an RFD takes a Firearm from another RFD he takes it on charge as stock because he doesn't know how long it will be before you come and collect it.
He then transfers it from his stock to you and enters it on your FC when you collect it.
That is where the 'paperwork' comes in and is included in the charge for doing the transfer.

 

[Dalua]

When an RFD takes a Firearm from another RFD he takes it on charge as stock because he doesn't know how long it will be before you come and collect it.
He then transfers it from his stock to you when you collect it.
That is where the 'paperwork' comes in and is included in the charge for doing the transfer.

Can it be 'his stock' if you're the owner, having paid the transferring RFD/FAC-holder for it?
In truth, he doesn't know when you're going to rock up to collect a repair either - doesn't mean it becomes 'his stock'!

 

[Jim xyz]

Guys,

I came across this a wee while ago when I bought a rifle over the net and wanted it RFD'd to my local gun shop.

Hopefully the link below will work.

Jim

Strange Request For RFD Transfer

 

[smullery]

Well lads, your RFD of choice (remember, the guy you do all your business with, and hopefully in the same Police Authority) has two choices. You can either go with his choice ( and everyone is happy) or you can go with your choice.....

If you have a good RFD rather than a wanna B then all things work. If you live on the Internet and only drop into the real word because "you have to"....

Stan

 

[EMcC]

I have sold several firearms recently and all has gone well using the system that I have tried to explain.
The cash transaction has nothing to do with firearms law but the control/ownership of a firearm does and it has to be accounted for by law at all stages of it's existance.
The face to face transaction takes place at it's final handover, be it sale for cash or transfer having already been paid for to a third party.
I know of no other way to explain it other than how I have so far, so I give up.

 

[bewsher500]

in which case why am I still paying the receiving RFD £20-40 for "admin" if it is on my FAC!?!?

there is nothing to stop an RFD sending a firearm to another RFD to sell it on his behalf

it actually matters not whether the item is on your FAC before the event or after the event so long as one of the RFD's has sight of your FAC and you have the authority.

one way is arse about face
one is still a rip off

 

[Dalua]

in which case why am I still paying the receiving RFD £20-40 for "admin" if it is on my FAC!?!?

Because you are not an RFD, and may therefore not receive a rifle in the post. You therefore made an agreement with a RFD that he would use his RFDness to receive the rifle for you, and you would pay him. Pretty straightforward, no?

there is nothing to stop an RFD sending a firearm to another RFD to sell it on his behalf

I suppose not, although I can't imagine many RFD's woudl do that out of the kindness of their hearts: and in any case, that isn't the same as the FAC-holder buying the rifle from far-away-RFD and having it sent to near-by-RFD so he can collect it.

it actually matters not whether the item is on your FAC before the event or after the event so long as one of the RFD's has sight of your FAC and you have the authority.

If you have already paid far-away-RFD for the rifle, it is yours and should therefore be on your FAC before you collect it from near-by-RFD.

That, at least, is my understanding.

one way is arse about face
one is still a rip off

If you think about who owns the rifle, it might seem less a-about-f.
As to 'rip-off', I guess that you can make choices as to whether you pay the fee you've negotiated with the RFD for his using his facilities to your benefit, or fill up with diesel, take a day off and get motoring.

 

[Taff]

Some of you over think a lot of things don,t you.

 

[EMcC]

Some of you over think a lot of things don,t you.

My system works for me without any hitches, be it right or wrong, and I've been doing it my way for quite a while now disposing of rifles to Southern Ireland and other places in UK and Europe.
I'm sure I would have had my collar felt long before now if I was doing it wrong.
Maybe my way is not the only way but it works for me so I'll stick with it.