To clean or not to clean ?
- Thread starter rodkayak
- Start date
Trackerman
Well-Known Member
Cleaned and lightly oiled after every use, pulled through with a dry patch before use, hard to break old habits.
I try to clean mine every time its used, I did try wipout and thought it was great, until I tried bore tech, from rifle craft, it works far better then wipe out
atb
simon
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
Right, i decided to clean my 30-06 (sticking bolt that had nothing to do with not being cleaned) very reluctantly as i suspected it would cause more problems than it was worth based on previous experience.
So down to the range, 2 batches of 165 and 180 grain bullets.
First 10 bullets all over the place, then the group started to tighten down as the barrel started to dirty up, just started to get a nice tight group and ran out of rounds!
The good thing to come out of this was i had wound back my distance to the lands and seated the bullets deeper, awesome, the Sierra's in 165 still grouped well as they did before, the 180 grain Nosler Partitions also grouped well which they never have before, so now i am spoilt for choice!
Cheers
Richard
So down to the range, 2 batches of 165 and 180 grain bullets.
First 10 bullets all over the place, then the group started to tighten down as the barrel started to dirty up, just started to get a nice tight group and ran out of rounds!
The good thing to come out of this was i had wound back my distance to the lands and seated the bullets deeper, awesome, the Sierra's in 165 still grouped well as they did before, the 180 grain Nosler Partitions also grouped well which they never have before, so now i am spoilt for choice!
Cheers
Richard
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
I have several rifles that require a certain amount of fouling to shoot well
the argument for deep cleaning to remove metal fouling goes out the window in this case
cleaning carbon and general fouling is not the same
I pull through or patch out carbon and muck after each day out
having wasted god knows how many rounds getting a rifle back on zero after a full deep cleaning I regret it each time
A new, hand lapped, target standard, rifle barrel with very fine surfaces internally can not be compared with an industrial cut, "Friday afternoon" barrel with chatter marks and pitting.
the latter is often the one that responds well to a "filling in" of rough, porous or pitted surfaces with some lead/copper
the argument for deep cleaning to remove metal fouling goes out the window in this case
cleaning carbon and general fouling is not the same
I pull through or patch out carbon and muck after each day out
having wasted god knows how many rounds getting a rifle back on zero after a full deep cleaning I regret it each time
A new, hand lapped, target standard, rifle barrel with very fine surfaces internally can not be compared with an industrial cut, "Friday afternoon" barrel with chatter marks and pitting.
the latter is often the one that responds well to a "filling in" of rough, porous or pitted surfaces with some lead/copper
And to think of the grief this site gave me for suggesting that was exactly the positive side to using moly coated bullets.
Slap it on, roll it out and burnish with the vigour of an 18-year old with a copy of Razzle!
K
bewsher500
Well-Known Member
And to think of the grief this site gave me for suggesting that was exactly the positive side to using moly coated bullets.
Slap it on, roll it out and burnish with the vigour of an 18-year old with a copy of Razzle!
K
now there is an image!
As the ever wonderful Ian Dury once sang: "Hit me...hit me...HIT....... ME!!
Toxster
Well-Known Member
Too true, after deep copper cleaning my M65 it took 50+ rounds to get it to behave with a normal cleaning routine.
I think with a lightly pitted/rough barrel it's fine to de-copper but just stick to patches and leave the brushes alone. Mine now gets a carbon wipe every 20 with a light copper patching. Flush and wipe with three spots of oil then a dry patch. I think this keeps the roughness under control but stops the fouling from getting silly.
Otherwise known as learn what your barrel likes....
\
...And this is my argument for not 'running in' barrels on custom rifles.
I don't think that you are filling in any ruts with copper shooting standard factory barrels. I have gotten excellent grouping right from the box with standard, factory rifles. What happens when you "deep clean" (Sounds like you're giving yourself an enema) a barrel is that you are removing copper and powder residuals, yes, but also impregnating the metal with whatever cleaner you have subjected it to. This must then be shot out to reestablish accuracy.
So, in a word, "Don't." Leave the gun alone if it's shooting well. If you must clean something, go give yourself a 'deep cleaning' but leave a good shooting rifle to do its work.~Muir
Out of geeky curiosity, what is it that cleaning removes? As far as I can see the products of combustion are nitrogen, water, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide, possibly some nitrogen dioxide. Unless the high temperature and high pressure causes a further reaction producing nitric acid. I've been told that you clean to remove corrosive materials left after burning and I'm wondering what those are. I tend to clean after each firing with more time taken after a long range session.
Outside of a laboratory combustion is never 100% complete, so there's some carbon left behind too. The carbon can absorb water and nitric acid, thereby producing the corrosion issues you've heard about. But if the gun is stored in a dry place I don't think it's really much of an issue in the real world.
The rifling is also slightly smaller than the bullet, so some of the bullet (or more commonly its jacket) is also left behind as the charge squeezes the bullet through the rifling. That's the copper and lead fouling that's being discussed, and has a larger impact on accuracy.
Cheers,
Jeff.
The rifling is also slightly smaller than the bullet, so some of the bullet (or more commonly its jacket) is also left behind as the charge squeezes the bullet through the rifling. That's the copper and lead fouling that's being discussed, and has a larger impact on accuracy.
Cheers,
Jeff.
Toxster
Well-Known Member
Having shot a brand new barrel last week there is a notable change after a few rounds. Not sure what this means but I noticed the following.
New Tikka T3 Varmint arrives, cleaned it, green gunk and horribleness came out.
Shot one then cleaned it. Patch was utterly filthy, took two more wet patches and 5 dry ones to get it clean.
Shot two. Cleaned it - patch was very dirty but not as bad as before
Shot three. Cleaned it - patch was dirty but near "normal"
Three shot string. Cleaned it - patch was the same as after shot three. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Three shot string. Cleaned it - patch was not as bad as the previous string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Five shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous three shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Five shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous five shot string - maybe a bit lighter. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Ten shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous five shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Ten shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous ten shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Three shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer.
Fifteen shots. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous five shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Ten shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer.
Added moderator. Three shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer.
Clean then add patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Three shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer
Remove moderator - scream as flesh sticks.....
Carbon clean, oil, put in case and go home..... 80 rounds down including sighting in the M65....
Point being that the barrel was definitely changing and getting naturally cleaner. No brushes were used.
New Tikka T3 Varmint arrives, cleaned it, green gunk and horribleness came out.
Shot one then cleaned it. Patch was utterly filthy, took two more wet patches and 5 dry ones to get it clean.
Shot two. Cleaned it - patch was very dirty but not as bad as before
Shot three. Cleaned it - patch was dirty but near "normal"
Three shot string. Cleaned it - patch was the same as after shot three. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Three shot string. Cleaned it - patch was not as bad as the previous string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Five shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous three shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Five shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous five shot string - maybe a bit lighter. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Ten shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous five shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Ten shot string. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous ten shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Three shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer.
Fifteen shots. Cleaned - patch was same as the previous five shot string. Patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Ten shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer.
Added moderator. Three shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer.
Clean then add patch of KG12 copper cleaner, brake cleaner, oil then dry.
Three shots for groups. Shot fine, no first flyer
Remove moderator - scream as flesh sticks.....
Carbon clean, oil, put in case and go home..... 80 rounds down including sighting in the M65....
Point being that the barrel was definitely changing and getting naturally cleaner. No brushes were used.
deerwarden
Well-Known Member
Always remove my mod every time I store rifle, in summer store rifle in cabinet without cleaning as below unless it has been raining, in winter always remove mod on arrival home, and allow rifle to acclimatise while having a meal, run a dry patch through to remove moisture caused by condensation, then run an oily patch through, next time out run patch with meth's on it to remove oil and use. Doesn't change point of impact doing this at all. I do this because my mannlicher lost accuracy due to the erosion in the last 6 inches of the barrel caused by storing with the T8 mod on, as a previous post said, moisture and carbon deposits in the mod create an acidic acid to form during damp conditions, first sign is small corrosive pitting on the crown, my 223 Remmy 700 is showing that now, both cans were the Reflex T4 and T8 and I noticed the T4 is showing erosion/pitting in the baffles. I now use Ace Ultra cans for both rifles, and dry it out on a rad before putting it away. Only remove the mod in the summer, run a patch through in the winter etc when its damp. Don't intend losing my 202 and SGC the way I did my many, my guns, my money, my regime works for me. My S3 el and other shotties I always clean after use as their used more in the winter, and relive the days sport in my mind while doing it. deerwarden.
Sinistral
Well-Known Member
This has come up more than a few times on SD, and it’s obviously easier not to bother with all the hassle of cleaning. I'm driven by the fact that my rifles were so hard to find & get permission for that my plan is to keep each of them for 20 years or so. Others want to change their rifles more often, and there's always the option of passing them on after a bit of neglect to the next mug in the much wider right-hand market.
Every now and then when feeling idle I remember a very old article I found & photocopied entitled 'The Facts of Barrel Life (American Rifleman - Jan1978). Just dug it out again, and it says that any half-decent .308 barrel should keep its' accuracy for at least 4000 rounds, but very few do. The reason is that many shooters share the misconception that smokeless powder & non-corrosive primers make cleaning unnecessary.
It claims that rusting or corrosion from lack of cleaning is the most common cause of shortened barrel life. Damage from improper cleaning ranks next (thisisn’t defined, but cleaning without brushing is a common fault).
It then adds an extremely technical explanation over several pages of the process of corrosion within rifle barrels. This is disintegration of metal by electrochemical reaction or direct chemical attack.
The first is also called galvanic reaction, and occurs when different metals such as steel and copper with different electrical potentials are in close contact. The second occurs with the water vapour produced in the bore from combustion of a cartridge, and to some extent from atmospheric corrosion where oxygen, carbon dioxide, and water are always present.
To quote it directly - 'High power rifle barrels fired with gilding-metal jacketed bullets left uncleaned and un-oiled in an average urban atmosphere, are usually favourable to galvanic reaction.'
There are several paragraphs then, which I don't fully understand I admit, explaining how positively charged particles of barrel steel become ferrous ions, and negatively charged electrons react with the different metals of steel, copper, and zinc in the presence of water (electrolyte) to form hydroxyl ions. The ferrous & hydroxyl ions then combine to produce iron oxide(rust). Once rusting starts it's hard to spot (without a bore light & microscope I guess), and virtually impossible to stop or get rid of because it builds up as layers in the pits, crevices, and corners of rifling lands, under copper fouling, under dirt, and unburnt powder. It goes on to say that rust destroys accuracy. It raises pressures, and makes them more erratic. It deforms, and tears loose particles from the jacket rather than being pushed out or broken up from shot to shot.
It then says that the remedy to all this constant attack is simple: thorough cleaning following every shooting, and then a light protective oiling of the bore. Apparently jacket fouling is really difficult to remove completely with common gun cleaning solvents, but a thin wash does no real harm. The main thing is that any cleaning regime removes any loose powder fouling thus removing lodging places for moisture.
There's only one answer. The hard truth is that if you want to keep your shooting iron at it’s best for as long as possible then it's vital to clean it each & every time.
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This should be printed on an extremely sticky label and attached to every rifle sold
Yep, and as posted elsewhere rifles chambered in calibres that rely on particularly dirty burning powders such as the Hornet are more prone than others.
K
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