Strange results zeroing - Your thoughts?

[FrenchieBoy]

Without wanting to get involved in any "falling out with anyone" I would never have even thought of taking on any live quarry with this 270 until I was 100% confident in my rifle/scope combination and my choise of ammunition. The changing from 130g to 150g ammunition was as much as anything t find out which offered the better accuracy/consistency!

 

[User00001]

Without wanting to get involved in any "falling out with anyone" I would never have even thought of taking on any live quarry with this 270 until I was 100% confident in my rifle/scope combination and my choise of ammunition. The changing from 130g to 150g ammunition was as much as anything t find out which offered the better accuracy/consistency!

Good on you. Again, apologies if my comments caused any offence.

 

[alberta boy]

Without wanting to get involved in any "falling out with anyone" I would never have even thought of taking on any live quarry with this 270 until I was 100% confident in my rifle/scope combination and my choise of ammunition. The changing from 130g to 150g ammunition was as much as anything t find out which offered the better accuracy/consistency!

I do the same thing myself and you did exactly the right thing . I've also had the same problem , it's usually the scope walking or a problem with the mounts . You've solved the problem and you know your rifle better , win ,win .

AB

 

[swarovski]

I would try shooting from 200yds into a target where its hard to see bullet holes forming, the times ive had 3 or 4 cutting or forming bug holes i always seem to let the last one go a bit spoiling the group, the trouble with seeing the holes form.

 

[FrenchieBoy]

OK, as a quick update.
I have fitted the new Hawke Sport HD 3-9X50 scope, carefully checked the mounts and been out to try to zero the rifle/scope combination with 130g PPU Ammunition. After just a couple of shots I had the zeroing spot on at 100 yards and I was able to shoot a sub 1 inch group with relative ease.
The weather was appauling (Driving rain and fairly strong winds) when I did the zeroing so I had to cut the session short but as soon as I am able to get out again (Time and weather wise - Hopefully this week-end) I intend to do as has been suggested - To mix some 130g and the same amount or 150g rounds and fire them at a target @100 yards, I intend to then then do the same with a fresh target set out @200 yards and then compare the results. This should do two things for me - First of all it should tell me that all is well and the rifle/scopes combination is set up correctly, and secondly it should help me to decide which weight of ammunition offers the more consistent accuracy through my rifle.
Just to allay any fears or worries - I will not be attempting to take on any live quarry until I am 100% happy and confident with my "set up"!

 

[hybridfiat]

My experience is that a person who buys a cheap scope and persists with using it will expend more ammo to compensate for its inability to keep its zero, than the cost of a half decent scope.

 

[FrenchieBoy]

My experience is that a person who buys a cheap scope and persists with using it will expend more ammo to compensate for its inability to keep its zero, than the cost of a half decent scope.

After the puzzler/problem that I had with the "cheap as chips" scope I have no option but to agree with you on that one mate.
However this does not mean that everyone has to go out and spend huge amounts on "Top of the range" Zeis, Swaros etc scoped costing many hundreds or even thousands of pounds.
My .270 is now fitted with a Hawke Sport HD 3-9X50 which is "All Firearm Calibre Rated" and carries a Lifetime Makers Guarantee, and only cost me £45.00 delivered BNIB. I am quite satisfied with the quality of this "Budget Scope" and the results it gives me and as such see no reason why I should not find it reliable.
The attached photo shows the results that I can get with these scopes fitted on my (Cheap and quite old) Parker Hale Safari .270 - This target was shot at 100 yards using 6 rounds which consisted of 3 rounds of PPU 130g Softpoints and 3 rounds of PPU 150g Soft Points (PPU being the cheapest ammunition available at the time). I mixed the rounds up so that I did not know which weight i was firing on each shot (I know that I pulled the one "loose shot which went to the right") With these results all I need to do now is to try a target using 5 rounds of the 130g and then another using 5 rounds of the 150g to find which weight of ammunition gives the more consistent group and that is the type and weight of ammunition which I will stick to - Had it not started raining quite heavily I would have done this at the same time!


To help put this into perspective the red "Bulls Eye" is 40mm dia!

 

[bewsher500]

to my eyes there are two distinct patterns there
one lower touching group
one higher stringing horizontally
would be interesting to know if they match up with the ammo.
Did you have a way of checking to see what bullet weight you had fired after the shot?
Any details on shot order on that target?

Personally I have shot lots of rifles and used lots of cheap scopes
some cheap ones have failed notably a Tasco on a .22lr, so recoil was not the cause, and a Schmidt and Bender on a 300WM, recoil was the issue!
I did an emergency replacement of the S&B with a Nikko Stirling 8x50 and went stalking. performed faultlessly including a target morning of 30+ shots in 30-40 mins!

I am still struggling to see how a scope can
a) hold a decent group with 130gr but not for 150gr (130gr use more powder and shoot 250-300fps faster, I doubt actual recoil is any different)
b) display a distinct stringing pattern more often associated with physical attributes of rifle and stock/shooter position

as it stands you have a rifle that will shoot 130 and 150gr to similar POI and is perfectly capable of killing anything in the UK

leave it alone and practice doing the same with your knees in a bog and rain trickling down your neck and frozen hands!

 

[FrenchieBoy]

to my eyes there are two distinct patterns there
one lower touching group
one higher stringing horizontally
would be interesting to know if they match up with the ammo.
Did you have a way of checking to see what bullet weight you had fired after the shot?
Any details on shot order on that target?

Personally I have shot lots of rifles and used lots of cheap scopes
some cheap ones have failed notably a Tasco on a .22lr, so recoil was not the cause, and a Schmidt and Bender on a 300WM, recoil was the issue!
I did an emergency replacement of the S&B with a Nikko Stirling 8x50 and went stalking. performed faultlessly including a target morning of 30+ shots in 30-40 mins!

I am still struggling to see how a scope can
a) hold a decent group with 130gr but not for 150gr (130gr use more powder and shoot 250-300fps faster, I doubt actual recoil is any different)
b) display a distinct stringing pattern more often associated with physical attributes of rifle and stock/shooter position

as it stands you have a rifle that will shoot 130 and 150gr to similar POI and is perfectly capable of killing anything in the UK

leave it alone and practice doing the same with your knees in a bog and rain trickling down your neck and frozen hands!

Thanks for your thoughts.
There was no way of knowing which weight of ammunition was responsible for which bullet hole on the target as I pre mixed the 6 rounds beforehand, 3 of the 130g and 3 of the 150g so that I did not know which was which when I fired them.
I happily accept that there might well be a bit of shooter error there and I also accept and agree that I could do with some more time to get used to the handling of this rifle in various shooting positions before taking it out stalking or culling as there may well be minor "shouldering/handling issues" involved which might need sorting.
As things went on the wind was picking up a little (Blowing about 45 degrees towards me from left to right) and it was getting a lot colder - However I do not want to use that as any sort of an excuse for poor shooting.

 

[sussex stalker]

Were you using a sound moderator? if so it may have worked loose??

Here's a little bit of a puzzler for you.
I went out the other day to set up a new set of scopes and mounts and to try changing over from 130g ammunition to 150g ammunition in my 270 rifle. The rifle is a Parker Hale Safari and the ammunition used was PPU (SP). The scopes (An unbranded set but guaranteed Fog Proof, Shock Proof and Recoil Proof) and the Scope Mounts (A brand new set of Nikko Stirling Platinum Mounts) were fitted to the rifle and were checked for tightness both before and again after the zeroing session. I am positive that they hadn't moved.
I checked the zeroing with the 130g ammunition while sat at a bench at (Aproximately) 100 yards and found the rifle's zeroing to be pretty much spot on. I then set out a new target (Exactly the same range and shooting position) and "double checked the zeroing" with 1 round of PPU 130g (SP) ammunition. The resulting shot showed that the rifle and scope was spot on for this ammunition. I then loaded the rifle with 4 rounds of PPU 150g (SP) ammunition and carefully shot them at the same target. The first round went 4cm low, which is something that I expected it to with a slightly heavier bullet head. However the next shot went marginally lower and left again from the previous shot. When the third and fourth shots were fired they did exactly the same, each shot going exactly the same amount further both low and left than the previous rounds, giving a very regular diagonal "laddering" effect.
I have my own thoughts as to what has happened but before I say what they are I would welcome your thoughts and opinions on this "unusual situation".
A photo of the resulting target is attached for you to form your opinions from. To put things into perspective the red "bull" is exactly 40mm dia.
View attachment 48885

 

[FrenchieBoy]

Were you using a sound moderator? if so it may have worked loose??

Worth a thought but no I wasn't using a sound moderator, I have a slot for one but I am having to save up and intend to to get one at a later date. As it turns out the "problem" has been solved by putting a better quality scope on the rifle.
Thanks for your thought though.

 

[Heym SR20]

Two points come to mind.

Firstly all the bullets in that compund group will have killed the deer that they were aimed at, but yes given the aiming circle is 40mm and bit tighter would be better.

Secondly that stringing is probably due to how you are supporting the rifle. You mention you are using a bipod on a hard table. a PH Safari is quite a light barreled rifle and probably full bedded rather than free floated. Nothing wrong with that, but suspect that the extra recoil of the 150 gn bullets is causing the issue. Try shooting it off a bag and use your hand to firmly grip the foreend and then rest this on the bag and you will probably find the groups shrink quite a bit. If you are using a bipod, shoot off soft ground and use your fore hand to firmly grip the fore end rather than the butt as is the norm with poeple watvching too many videos of snipers shooting very heavy sniper rifles.

 

[FrenchieBoy]

Two points come to mind.

Firstly all the bullets in that compund group will have killed the deer that they were aimed at, but yes given the aiming circle is 40mm and bit tighter would be better.

Secondly that stringing is probably due to how you are supporting the rifle. You mention you are using a bipod on a hard table. a PH Safari is quite a light barreled rifle and probably full bedded rather than free floated. Nothing wrong with that, but suspect that the extra recoil of the 150 gn bullets is causing the issue. Try shooting it off a bag and use your hand to firmly grip the foreend and then rest this on the bag and you will probably find the groups shrink quite a bit. If you are using a bipod, shoot off soft ground and use your fore hand to firmly grip the fore end rather than the butt as is the norm with poeple watvching too many videos of snipers shooting very heavy sniper rifles.

Heym -You have raised some fair and reasonable points here.
For the target that is shown in post mo 27 the rifle was on a bipod but this time on the ground with me shooting in the prone position - The target that is shown right at the beginning of this thread was shot off a bipod resting on a table. You mention that there is a possibility that the Parker Hale Safari might not be fully floating - I have checked this and made sure that the barrel is fully floating.As it is when i can next get out to put some more rounds down range I will be finding out which of the 2 weights of ammunition gave the three almost touching shots shown in the photo in post no 27 (which is an 18mm three shot group) and settle for using that weight of PPU ammunition.
Having said that thank you for the "food for thought"!

 

[Heym SR20]

I have always found that bipods work well with heavy barrelled / moderated rifles, but I have to shoot well with them on light barreled rifles, and certainly with my Heym I get better results shooting the old fashioned way.

 

[hybridfiat]

After the puzzler/problem that I had with the "cheap as chips" scope I have no option but to agree with you on that one mate.
However this does not mean that everyone has to go out and spend huge amounts on "Top of the range" Zeis, Swaros etc scoped costing many hundreds or even thousands of pounds.


Agreed. Totally with you on that one. There are a lot of good scopes that aren't poisonously expensive but give good performance. Bushnell, Pentax, Nikon to mention a few. I have a 1980s Bushnell Trophy 1.75-5 x 20. Clear as crystal and has held it's point of aim for 2 decades.

 

[bewsher500]

THowever I do not want to use that as any sort of an excuse for poor shooting.

nothing poor about any of those
sure there will be guys who are furious with themselves if you can see more than one hole from a 25 shot group

many people who are now "trained hunters" have shot worse than that
if you can replicate any of those in the field you are better shot than many would admit to being

stop beating yourself up
bet you could tighten those up by losing the bipod and controlling the fore-end alone

 

[Heym SR20]

+1 on not beating yourself up.

Also remember that until about 20 years ago a rifle that shot sub 1" at 100yds was exceptional. Most factory rifles would shoot a 2 or 3" group with factory ammo and for 90% of the time this will put a bullet through the engine room of most deer out to 200 yds. Many rifles did shoot much better, especially those that had been built with a lot of care to final fitting.

Your Parker Hale is from that earlier generation, and respect it for what it is.

Modern manufacturing has has tightened up the tolerances and whilst a new t3 or Howa is not as nice as an older rifle they certainly shoot very well straight out of the box. Is this level of accuracy needed - yes if you are needing to head shoot field mice at 600 metres, but for most stalking situations a Parker hale, a 4x32 or 6x42 scope or indeed open sights and a level of skill will put venison on the table.