303 Jc load
- Thread starter MrYou
- Start date
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
MrYou said:
Ahhh I have never tried firing the head
after all that's where the primer goes and where the case is marked with the headstamp 
As for 125 grain and 150 grain bullets yes I have used them in the 303 British cartridge. Here is a 150 grain Hornady Spire Point bullet recovered from a fallow Doe:-
Sorry but I have not used the Vhit powders but have used these:-
H4895
H335
Reloader 12
Vectan SP7
The recovered bullet was loaded over a charge of SP7 but was shot from a BSA Model "E" :-
Which of course is a sporterised P-14 dating from the 1949-1953 period.
Not I understand that the Sierra 150 grain Pro Hunter bullet also performs well on deer however I have only used it on targets and that was 14 years ago. Back then in a P-H Supreme No1 I used the 150 grain Sierra with 40.0 grains H4895. Now although it was fine in my rifle you would need to reduce the load and work up to it.
MrYou
Well-Known Member
303
Thanks for the tip ..
I have a sub 2" group with 174gr @ 200yds , but i was thinking that loosing a kilo of meat per shot, on a reasonably sized animal would be saved with smaller 'heads' .. I wil work on it , i tried working loads from 36 -42 up , with a faster 133 vit, but the shots key holed at 100yds, & were terrible groups.
with 100gr heads the vit 133 was good, but only to 100yds, so im hoping for a hgappy medium.
Best & nice rifle there
Thanks for the tip ..
I have a sub 2" group with 174gr @ 200yds , but i was thinking that loosing a kilo of meat per shot, on a reasonably sized animal would be saved with smaller 'heads' .. I wil work on it , i tried working loads from 36 -42 up , with a faster 133 vit, but the shots key holed at 100yds, & were terrible groups.
with 100gr heads the vit 133 was good, but only to 100yds, so im hoping for a hgappy medium.
Best & nice rifle there
"KEYHOLE", Term commonly used by shooters to denote a strike on target by a tumbling bullet, (going through in a somewhat upright position, instead of pointy end first), sometimes used mistakenly by shooters trying to describe a "cloverleaf, or tight vertical string"
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Re: 303
Ahhh Mr You,
Do you know if your rifle has been shot much with Surplus ammunition using cordite propellant? I ask because due to the heat crazing caused by cordite the old school NRA target shooters found that a barrel used with much cordite ammunition did not shoot Nitro Cellose ammunition so well so they often had two rifles one used with Cordite and the other with NC powder.
It's said it's to do with the way cordite ignites and "Bumps" up the bullet to fit the throat a lot like Black powder does while NC does not do this. Plus barrels that have been used with much cordite ammunition do not shoot Boat tailed bulelts very well. You mention you had trouble with "Keyholing" which is a classic sign that the barrel has been shot with a fair bit of cordite ammunition and that Boat tailed bullets were being used. Flat based bullets shoot better in the .303 British
Now as to meat destruction I fear you have not quite got it right on this. It's the construction and not the bullet weight which controls the expansion and meat destruction, the heavier bullet being slower should in theory at least be less destructive. This Fox was shot whilst stalking with that BSA Model E using Winchester factory "White Box" 180 Gr SP ammuntition:-
Ahhh yes for those with sharp eyes the bolt is "Cocked" but on an empty chamber the rifle was unloaded to climb down from the seat 
the closed bolt keeps debris out of the magazine and chamber and especially the locking lug recess.
He turned his head just as I squeezed the trigger, notice the way the pelt has blown up off the shoulder on the entrance wound Now this next one was shot with a 30-30 again using Winchester factory ammunition "white box" but 150 Gr HP this time:-
Entrance wound
Exit is huge and nearly took the leg off. Now both were shot from the same highseat and at almost exactly the same spot at a range of about 70 yards. Neither rounds are really high velocity yet both produced large amounts of damage.
The Sierra 150 gr bullet is constructed, according to figures I have in some tables here, to withstand a much higher vleocity so it's a tougher bullet and should cause less meat loss. However as I have never used it in stalking I cannot say from first hand experience that this is true. That is because I prefer Hornady bullets as a rule . My 1st Edition Vhitavuori manual only lists one load for the 303 with a 180 grain bullet and it uses N140 powder... Ahhh I see that edition #6 lists other bullet weights and lists N130 and N133 for use with 150 grain bullets in the .303 and 42.0 grains is slightly over their maximum recomended load.
Now may I suggest that you try another powder and if your not shooting in Scotland with the 303 then I humbly suggest the Hornady 180 grain RNSP (round nose soft point) bullet from Hornady over a charge of 38.0- 38.5 grains of H4895 as it has proven to be very accurate is a lot of .303 rifles over the years and not only for myself. Sadly I don't have any left otherwise I would suggest you trying a few for yourself without having to buy a box of them
not having a .303 listed for Deer I had to put all my expanding ammunition and bullets into storage at the dealers 
.
MrYou said:Thanks for the tip ..
I have a sub 2" group with 174gr @ 200yds , but i was thinking that loosing a kilo of meat per shot, on a reasonably sized animal would be saved with smaller 'heads' .. I wil work on it , i tried working loads from 36 -42 up , with a faster 133 vit, but the shots key holed at 100yds, & were terrible groups.
with 100gr heads the vit 133 was good, but only to 100yds, so im hoping for a hgappy medium.
Best & nice rifle there
Ahhh Mr You,
Do you know if your rifle has been shot much with Surplus ammunition using cordite propellant? I ask because due to the heat crazing caused by cordite the old school NRA target shooters found that a barrel used with much cordite ammunition did not shoot Nitro Cellose ammunition so well so they often had two rifles one used with Cordite and the other with NC powder.
It's said it's to do with the way cordite ignites and "Bumps" up the bullet to fit the throat a lot like Black powder does while NC does not do this. Plus barrels that have been used with much cordite ammunition do not shoot Boat tailed bulelts very well. You mention you had trouble with "Keyholing" which is a classic sign that the barrel has been shot with a fair bit of cordite ammunition and that Boat tailed bullets were being used. Flat based bullets shoot better in the .303 British
Now as to meat destruction I fear you have not quite got it right on this. It's the construction and not the bullet weight which controls the expansion and meat destruction, the heavier bullet being slower should in theory at least be less destructive. This Fox was shot whilst stalking with that BSA Model E using Winchester factory "White Box" 180 Gr SP ammuntition:-
Ahhh yes for those with sharp eyes the bolt is "Cocked" but on an empty chamber
the rifle was unloaded to climb down from the seat the closed bolt keeps debris out of the magazine and chamber and especially the locking lug recess.
He turned his head just as I squeezed the trigger, notice the way the pelt has blown up off the shoulder on the entrance wound
Now this next one was shot with a 30-30 again using Winchester factory ammunition "white box" but 150 Gr HP this time:-
Entrance wound
Exit is huge and nearly took the leg off. Now both were shot from the same highseat and at almost exactly the same spot at a range of about 70 yards. Neither rounds are really high velocity yet both produced large amounts of damage.
The Sierra 150 gr bullet is constructed, according to figures I have in some tables here, to withstand a much higher vleocity so it's a tougher bullet and should cause less meat loss. However as I have never used it in stalking I cannot say from first hand experience that this is true. That is because I prefer Hornady bullets as a rule
. My 1st Edition Vhitavuori manual only lists one load for the 303 with a 180 grain bullet and it uses N140 powder... Ahhh I see that edition #6 lists other bullet weights and lists N130 and N133 for use with 150 grain bullets in the .303 and 42.0 grains is slightly over their maximum recomended load.Now may I suggest that you try another powder and if your not shooting in Scotland with the 303 then I humbly suggest the Hornady 180 grain RNSP (round nose soft point) bullet from Hornady over a charge of 38.0- 38.5 grains of H4895 as it has proven to be very accurate is a lot of .303 rifles over the years and not only for myself. Sadly I don't have any left otherwise I would suggest you trying a few for yourself without having to buy a box of them
not having a .303 listed for Deer I had to put all my expanding ammunition and bullets into storage at the dealers .
MrYou
Well-Known Member
Thanks again 'Brithunter'
The 303 i use is a Jungle carbine 1947 , it was mumified when i bought it, (wrapped in lashings cosmoline & brown paper/ poss never issued) & forgoten about in a guys house in Scotland, i caught a whisper & bought the 'beast' it shoots great with 174gr & vit 140, so NO use of cordite or any mil surp , only privvy, I put thru her.
It has had only 130 rounds thru, so far with 174gr (80), & 50 with 100-150gr heads , at lower laods
I took it out of the origonal wood , for safe keeping, & now it holds a snyth sporter stock, well bedded & floated..accuracy is superb as said with 174gr.... scoped with fulton mount & busnell.
I recently whacked a large fallow , from the shoulder through, the skin held the opposite side together, but on cleaning the animal, the opposite shoulder & top leg was mashed, this was form 120yds approx
The lighter ammo has only been used on apaper punching at the moment until i am happy with the results. H335 looks good, i will get a tub, for the lighter heads.
Just been scaning a few reload pages as you suggest i will sample something slightly hotter.. & inbetween 140/133 Vit.
335 / 4895
The 303 i use is a Jungle carbine 1947 , it was mumified when i bought it, (wrapped in lashings cosmoline & brown paper/ poss never issued) & forgoten about in a guys house in Scotland, i caught a whisper & bought the 'beast' it shoots great with 174gr & vit 140, so NO use of cordite or any mil surp , only privvy, I put thru her.
It has had only 130 rounds thru, so far with 174gr (80), & 50 with 100-150gr heads , at lower laods
I took it out of the origonal wood , for safe keeping, & now it holds a snyth sporter stock, well bedded & floated..accuracy is superb as said with 174gr.... scoped with fulton mount & busnell.
I recently whacked a large fallow , from the shoulder through, the skin held the opposite side together, but on cleaning the animal, the opposite shoulder & top leg was mashed, this was form 120yds approx
The lighter ammo has only been used on apaper punching at the moment until i am happy with the results. H335 looks good, i will get a tub, for the lighter heads.
Just been scaning a few reload pages as you suggest i will sample something slightly hotter.. & inbetween 140/133 Vit.
335 / 4895
MrYou
Well-Known Member
finnbear270 said:"KEYHOLE", Term commonly used by shooters to denote a strike on target by a tumbling bullet, (going through in a somewhat upright position, instead of pointy end first), sometimes used mistakenly by shooters trying to describe a "cloverleaf, or tight vertical string"
Thanks 'Fin'
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Ahhhh as all mine were or the P-H Deluxe or Supreme types they had drilled and tapped actions for the Parker-Hale rails and rings which allow a lower scope than your set up however that setup allows for no alteration of the action so it's good..
Now as yours is a late WW2 one I would check the bore size even though it's virtually unsed. During WW2 they werre allowed to let through barrels which previously would have been rejected due to being oversize in the bore. Groove sizes of 0.317" have been noted instead of the 0.312" and bore sizes of 0.307" instead of 0.303".
I have just checked my No4 Supreme conversion which was done according to the proof marks in 1960 has as far as I can tell a bore of 0.304" a groove size of 0.315. The action is dated 1943 but in 1951 it was converted to No4 Mk1/2 so it has the better trigger location so far I have not gotten the accuracy I would like from this one 
but the barrel is not dated as they often were so I suspect it's the one fitted in the FTR of 1951.
Oh since this was taken the dreadful recoil pad has been replaced by a ribbed rubber BSA butt pad.
I was hoping for MOA or just over however I have not put a scope on it yes just had a Parker TZ47 target sight on it. Perhaps it's time I put the scope mounts on it. I have a new set of P-H ones and rings to suit also new and a couple of suitable 4x scopes as well as a 6x40 not on a rifle right now.
Now as yours is a late WW2 one I would check the bore size even though it's virtually unsed. During WW2 they werre allowed to let through barrels which previously would have been rejected due to being oversize in the bore. Groove sizes of 0.317" have been noted instead of the 0.312" and bore sizes of 0.307" instead of 0.303".
I have just checked my No4 Supreme conversion which was done according to the proof marks in 1960 has as far as I can tell a bore of 0.304" a groove size of 0.315. The action is dated 1943 but in 1951 it was converted to No4 Mk1/2 so it has the better trigger location
so far I have not gotten the accuracy I would like from this one but the barrel is not dated as they often were so I suspect it's the one fitted in the FTR of 1951.
Oh since this was taken the dreadful recoil pad has been replaced by a ribbed rubber BSA butt pad.
I was hoping for MOA or just over however I have not put a scope on it yes just had a Parker TZ47 target sight on it. Perhaps it's time I put the scope mounts on it. I have a new set of P-H ones and rings to suit also new and a couple of suitable 4x scopes as well as a 6x40 not on a rifle right now.
MrYou
Well-Known Member
303
Get the rail & scope fitted, it bring a whole new practise in..who knows you may enjoy it more..i cannot put mine down now !!
As it is designed to stabilise 174gr heads i know it may take some playing with to get a similar group to the sub 2" , with 125/150 gr bullets.
in sporter stock set up.
New here - http://www.peterlawman.co.uk/enfield.php
Get the rail & scope fitted, it bring a whole new practise in..who knows you may enjoy it more..i cannot put mine down now !!
As it is designed to stabilise 174gr heads i know it may take some playing with to get a similar group to the sub 2" , with 125/150 gr bullets.
in sporter stock set up.
New here - http://www.peterlawman.co.uk/enfield.php
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Hmmm funny you should say that I put the mounts on, two piece similar to on that sight , this evening and plonked an old Rhino 4x40 scope on it and adjusted it with a collimeter so it should be on paper . If the scope is no good I have a Nikko Sterling Special Sporting 4x32 that I know is good already in P-H rings that I can put on it .
I will try to take a couple of photos of it in the morning with the scope fitted. Mine has a shortened 5 round magazine and I have a spare 5 rounder plus a std 10 rnd mag for it.
I also have a couple more 303's here one is a long term project which need to get onto the mill to re-profile action as it's a century Arms sporterised P-14 and the rear bridge is horrible. I will mill it down to the same as the BSA model E and do some re-shaping to the stock and re-finish it as it's a beech stock so it will need a little work. Oh I almost forgot it's been re-chambered to .303 Improved by Norman Clark.
Then there is the Martini Muscat .303 which is like a small sporting carbine and the BSA No2 pattern sportign rifle also in .303. yep I have always liked the 303 and at one tiem had Eight of them at the same time but I am down to Six right now
seeign as how the .308 with a 1 in 10" twist cane stabilise a 130 grain bullet the 303 with a 1 in 10" twist should be able to stabilise a 150 grain bullet Good luck in your search and happy hunting .
I happen to have about 160 Kynoch 215 grain Soft Point RN bullets in storage which I stubled across at a Bisley arms fair a few years ago.
, this evening and plonked an old Rhino 4x40 scope on it and adjusted it with a collimeter so it should be on paper . If the scope is no good I have a Nikko Sterling Special Sporting 4x32 that I know is good already in P-H rings that I can put on it .I will try to take a couple of photos of it in the morning with the scope fitted. Mine has a shortened 5 round magazine and I have a spare 5 rounder plus a std 10 rnd mag for it.
I also have a couple more 303's here one is a long term project which need to get onto the mill to re-profile action as it's a century Arms sporterised P-14 and the rear bridge is horrible. I will mill it down to the same as the BSA model E and do some re-shaping to the stock and re-finish it as it's a beech stock so it will need a little work. Oh I almost forgot it's been re-chambered to .303 Improved by Norman Clark.
Then there is the Martini Muscat .303 which is like a small sporting carbine and the BSA No2 pattern sportign rifle also in .303. yep I have always liked the 303 and at one tiem had Eight of them at the same time but I am down to Six right now
Ahhh actually the rifling was designed to handle the 215 grain round nosed bullets which is why the 174 grain bullet has fibre or alloy in the bullet tip to keep the same length as the 215 grain bullet so only the sights needed altering for the new MkV11 ammunition and bullet that was adopted in 1910
seeign as how the .308 with a 1 in 10" twist cane stabilise a 130 grain bullet the 303 with a 1 in 10" twist should be able to stabilise a 150 grain bullet Good luck in your search and happy hunting .I happen to have about 160 Kynoch 215 grain Soft Point RN bullets in storage
which I stubled across at a Bisley arms fair a few years ago.
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Ahhh Muir,
I never got past the H4895 as it shot so well but must admit I have not tried the Hornady 174 Grn RNSP bullet in four of my current 303's and due to the stupidity of our rules here it will be some time before I can do so as they are expanding and I don't currently have the expanding variation on .303 .
I never got past the H4895 as it shot so well
but must admit I have not tried the Hornady 174 Grn RNSP bullet in four of my current 303's and due to the stupidity of our rules here it will be some time before I can do so as they are expanding and I don't currently have the expanding variation on .303 .
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Bob,
Althoguh the photos are small and I cannot see the rear of the action very clearly it looks to me like the charger bridge has been removed. If so then that's a P-H Custom but I cannot tell if it's a No1 or a No4 . I just picked up a mount for the No1 P-H Custom even though I don't have a P-H Custom.
Althoguh the photos are small and I cannot see the rear of the action very clearly it looks to me like the charger bridge has been removed. If so then that's a P-H Custom but I cannot tell if it's a No1 or a No4
. I just picked up a mount for the No1 P-H Custom even though I don't have a P-H Custom.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Ahhh actually the rifling was designed to handle the 215 grain round nosed bullets which is why the 174 grain bullet has fibre or alloy in the bullet tip to keep the same length as the 215 grain bullet so only the sights needed altering for the new MkV11 ammunition.
First what a pleasure to see an old BSA Model E!
Second re the above in italics on the tip filler.
I cannot agree. This could have been easily done with just a slight dish or hollow on the base. Also the adoption of the 174 grain round required a change of magazine platform shape. Hence you will see on SMLE magazines (from memory) a 2 or a 3 stamped on the follower and a 3 or 4 on the magazine carcase. Or some such numeric mark.
The filler was a response to the failure of the round nose 215 grain in India and elsewhere to be an effective stopper, the desire to compete with the new smokeless "high velocity" cartridges being adopted by the other Great Powers and the banning, at about the same time by the first Hague Regulations of the hollow and soft point military issue 303 rounds.
When the Mk VII was adopted the tip filler was used to take advantage of the then well known "velopex" principle. That a) the bullet would have a greater ballistic advantage being longer than its true weight would suppose and b) more importantly be unstable on impact. Thus giving increased wounding as against the 215 grain bullet and yet being apparently in compliance with the Hague Regulations.
The tip filler was initially aluminium. Bernard Spilsbury the forensic witness relates visiting the factory where these were being made and seeing fibre/paper being used as a tip filler as aluminium was in short supply.
He commented that why had it not been thought of before as clearly it was much cheaper to use waste fibre/paper than to use aluminium.
He was much surprised by the reply! That the fibre/paper tip bullets actually cost MORE to produce. As the fibre/paper had to be made totally sterile so as to avoid any accusations that the British were now using bullets designed to infect those wounded by said fibre/paper tip bullets!
And that the cost of that process far exceeded the cost of using aluminium!
First what a pleasure to see an old BSA Model E!
Second re the above in italics on the tip filler.
I cannot agree. This could have been easily done with just a slight dish or hollow on the base. Also the adoption of the 174 grain round required a change of magazine platform shape. Hence you will see on SMLE magazines (from memory) a 2 or a 3 stamped on the follower and a 3 or 4 on the magazine carcase. Or some such numeric mark.
The filler was a response to the failure of the round nose 215 grain in India and elsewhere to be an effective stopper, the desire to compete with the new smokeless "high velocity" cartridges being adopted by the other Great Powers and the banning, at about the same time by the first Hague Regulations of the hollow and soft point military issue 303 rounds.
When the Mk VII was adopted the tip filler was used to take advantage of the then well known "velopex" principle. That a) the bullet would have a greater ballistic advantage being longer than its true weight would suppose and b) more importantly be unstable on impact. Thus giving increased wounding as against the 215 grain bullet and yet being apparently in compliance with the Hague Regulations.
The tip filler was initially aluminium. Bernard Spilsbury the forensic witness relates visiting the factory where these were being made and seeing fibre/paper being used as a tip filler as aluminium was in short supply.
He commented that why had it not been thought of before as clearly it was much cheaper to use waste fibre/paper than to use aluminium.
He was much surprised by the reply! That the fibre/paper tip bullets actually cost MORE to produce. As the fibre/paper had to be made totally sterile so as to avoid any accusations that the British were now using bullets designed to infect those wounded by said fibre/paper tip bullets!
And that the cost of that process far exceeded the cost of using aluminium!
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Whoops yep I forgot about the magazine, they had different cases as well as followers. The other year I sold my spare Enfield magazines and I had about 4 different types of Mag case just kept one std No4 mag and of course the spare P-H shortened 5 rounder.
Edit:- Oh thanks for the kind remarks on the Model E. I didn't show the poor condition Model C which is a long term project for re-build
Edit:- Oh thanks for the kind remarks on the Model E. I didn't show the poor condition Model C which is a long term project for re-build
Harry mac
Well-Known Member
Brithunter, if you decide to ever sell that Mod E please give me a heads up. I've been on the look out for one for a while now. I was out bid on a nice one at auction the other year, the other guy's pockets were deeper than mine!
As for the JC loads for the original poster, I've had good results with Sierra 150 grn Pro-Hunter over 40grns Vectan TU 5000 powder. In the past I've used N140 and N135 (don't have the data to hand) and had good results as well.
As for the JC loads for the original poster, I've had good results with Sierra 150 grn Pro-Hunter over 40grns Vectan TU 5000 powder. In the past I've used N140 and N135 (don't have the data to hand) and had good results as well.
Last edited:
MrYou
Well-Known Member
hello Harry, If you just so happen to stumble across the 150 data for 140/135 please pm. nice to see some true history still been used out there & IMO the alround hunting cal. I been using 100-174 bullets for fox to large deer. Im almost there on the smaller stuff now
cheers
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
Ahhh Harry,
Fenland Rural Sports who advertise on Guntrader had a rather nice Model E in the racks a while back. Not so many of us reconise them so they might still have it. He certainly didn't know what it was. Oh he also had a BSA Monarch 1st pat marked as a BSA 5 Star................... sheesh.
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