243 fazination???

[Mungo]

I am saying it is a poor cartridge for general deer use, perhaps as a fellow UKer said "adequate" for Roe but certainly not for larger deer. Best suited for varmints and the like. In my opening post I said that if you could not take what you were hunting with a 223 it was time to step up to a 30 caliber.

Ok - that in itself is a relatively uncontentious statement.

But what then do you say to the average UK rifle hunter, whose primary quarry is roe, who does some foxing for the landowner, and who may get a chance at something like fallow or red hinds once or twice a year? And who has to navigate a licensing system that makes it extremely difficult to have multiple calibres, and which regards anything bigger than .243 with the utmost suspicion? Who also has to deal with a very sporadic and unpredictable ammunition supply, such that of they want a degree of certainty that they can find what they need, they need to stick to a really common 'vanilla' round? Who gets very little opportunity to practice, because ranges are extremely rare, bullets and fuel fearsomely expensive (more than double what you pay), and the few times he does get out, he wants to concentrate on getting some deer?

In that context, the .243 emerges as an almost unavoidable yet still very servicable all rounder. Easy to shoot, effective on a wide range of quarry, easy to feed and easy(ish) to get permission for.

I agree that, in less competent hands (such as my own), it reaches its limits with bigger fallow deer and beyond, but it really is just about the one cartridge that Mr. Bloggs can use as his one centrefire for almost all UK situations.

I know you meant this in jest - but you have the luxury of effectively unconstrained gun ownership, and the freedom to use them more or less as and when you like. We do not, and are forced to make a whole series of very calculated compromises to maximise the probablity that we ever actually shoot anything.

It is just a bit offensive, and smacks a lot of willy waving for the hell of it.

 

[howa243]

Ok - that in itself is a relatively uncontentious statement.

But what then do you say to the average UK rifle hunter, whose primary quarry is roe, who does some foxing for the landowner, and who may get a chance at something like fallow or red hinds once or twice a year? And who has to navigate a licensing system that makes it extremely difficult to have multiple calibres, and which regards anything bigger than .243 with the utmost suspicion? Who also has to deal with a very sporadic and unpredictable ammunition supply, such that of they want a degree of certainty that they can find what they need, they need to stick to a really common 'vanilla' round? Who gets very little opportunity to practice, because ranges are extremely rare, bullets and fuel fearsomely expensive (more than double what you pay), and the few times he does get out, he wants to concentrate on getting some deer?

In that context, the .243 emerges as an almost unavoidable yet still very servicable all rounder. Easy to shoot, effective on a wide range of quarry, easy to feed and easy(ish) to get permission for.

I agree that, in less competent hands (such as my own), it reaches its limits with bigger fallow deer and beyond, but it really is just about the one cartridge that Mr. Bloggs can use as his one centrefire for almost all UK situations.

I know you meant this in jest - but you have the luxury of effectively unconstrained gun ownership, and the freedom to use them more or less as and when you like. We do not, and are forced to make a whole series of very calculated compromises to maximise the probablity that we ever actually shoot anything.

It is just a bit offensive, and smacks a lot of willy waving for the hell of it.

+1.

There are 681 .243's available on guntrader as we speak, which means that there is plenty of choice. I only stalk Roe and now and again help with a cull of Reds(park). For both of these I use a .243 and so far have not had an animal move more than a step or two. If we learn from personal experiences then my experience says, that in the correct hands, on appropriate quarry and at reasonable distances, it is a perfectly efficient round.

 

[pablo.222]

I am saying it is a poor cartridge for general deer use, perhaps as a fellow UKer said "adequate" for Roe but certainly not for larger deer. Best suited for varmints and the like. In my opening post I said that if you could not take what you were hunting with a 223 it was time to step up to a 30 caliber.

SS

Well when i go hunting its a .222 i take for roe deer. It must really be a sissys rifle.

Mayb your relating shooting deer in america with a .243 and not the uk. Coz as far i can see it does wat it says on the tin. U have a dead deer at the end of the day.

 

[willie_gunn]

I am saying it is a poor cartridge for general deer use, perhaps as a fellow UKer said "adequate" for Roe but certainly not for larger deer.

If the fellow UKer was me then my exact words were "more than adequate". If it wasn't me then I'm just being paranoid

I have found the .243 to work very well on muntjac and roe (though anecdotally I would say the former are tougher than the latter). This is after perhaps 15 years of exclusively using a 308 on the same, so I am not a zealot and do have something to compare it to.

Why would I pick the 243 out of the cabinet when I have an identical 308 available? A number of factors, including that it's quieter (both are moderated, but a lot of the ground I stalk is very near housing), the felt recoil is less, and I seem to get less meat damage which, on smaller deer, is sometimes important. Of course the bullets I use are different between the 243 (100gr factory) and the 308 (150gr homeloads) so there are doubtless other factors at play but as I've said elsewhere, I'm more interested in stalking deer than I am messing about with different loads. What I use works for me, works on the deer, and gives me one less thing to worry about.

I've shot a few fallow with the 243 as well, the most recent one at approx 200 yards which you can read about in the Articles section. If you do read that article you'll find that the bullet didn't exit, which perhaps (and it is just perhaps) is an indicator that the 243 may be just adequate for fallow. I say perhaps as I've had shots from my 308 not exit from muntjac! As ever, it is those pesky deer who ruin everything by not obeying our rules and theories

I have stalked in Scotland for many years with people who've used a 243 on red deer, mostly with great success. The observant amongst you will have noticed that the important word in that sentence is "mostly", as I've unfortunately seen a couple of red deer wounded by the 243 and go unrecovered. That's why I personally wouldn't use a 243 on red deer. For those, and for boar, I'll take the 308 thank you!

 

[MARCBO]

If the fellow UKer was me then my exact words were "more than adequate". If it wasn't me then I'm just being paranoid

I have found the .243 to work very well on muntjac and roe (though anecdotally I would say the former are tougher than the latter). This is after perhaps 15 years of exclusively using a 308 on the same, so I am not a zealot and do have something to compare it to.

Why would I pick the 243 out of the cabinet when I have an identical 308 available? A number of factors, including that it's quieter (both are moderated, but a lot of the ground I stalk is very near housing), the felt recoil is less, and I seem to get less meat damage which, on smaller deer, is sometimes important. Of course the bullets I use are different between the 243 (100gr factory) and the 308 (150gr homeloads) so there are doubtless other factors at play but as I've said elsewhere, I'm more interested in stalking deer than I am messing about with different loads. What I use works for me, works on the deer, and gives me one less thing to worry about.

I've shot a few fallow with the 243 as well, the most recent one at approx 200 yards which you can read about in the Articles section. If you do read that article you'll find that the bullet didn't exit, which perhaps (and it is just perhaps) is an indicator that the 243 may be just adequate for fallow. I say perhaps as I've had shots from my 308 not exit from muntjac! As ever, it is those pesky deer who ruin everything by not obeying our rules and theories

I have stalked in Scotland for many years with people who've used a 243 on red deer, mostly with great success. The observant amongst you will have noticed that the important word in that sentence is "mostly", as I've unfortunately seen a couple of red deer wounded by the 243 and go unrecovered. That's why I personally wouldn't use a 243 on red deer. For those, and for boar, I'll take the 308 thank you!

I don't remember how many people have said it but the word "adequate" is ofteen used.

As to the 243 being quieter you are exactly right, bullet form makes a big difference in controlling noise so you cannot compare a flatbase to a boat tail nor a boat tail to another unless they are of the exact same dimensions proportionally.

Yup, getting a bullet to stop inside does the trick if it doesn't come apart. Blowing up is not an effient transfer of energy, results in runners and meat damage. With the 243 you have to push the envelope in velocity to get enough energy created and then hope the bullet construction is right for the terminal end of things.

In the end, for the hunter who primarily hunts Roe with the possibility of sometime shooting larger species and is limited to the number of guns he might have it really makes no sense to buy a gun that is just "adequate" for the small stuff. Sure if you can own more a 243 is attractive but a 222 or 223 can be much better for foxes and Roe. Having a 243 in the field for fox may give you some flexibity for a little larger stuff but may still not be enough for the one-gun hunter during his hunting career. The 308 is a great all-rounder with capability to take anything (that I know of) on four legs in the UK. It also has the decided advantage of ammunition being available on most any dealer's shelf. For the reloader there are more bullets available that any other caliber that can be stuffed into surplus brass.

Do you think there is a reason why there are so many used 243's for sale?

SS

 

[palmer_mike]

So a .243 is marginal for deer, but a .222 is ok for Roe (deer).

lost me there

(Note, I'm aware of the illegality of .222 on roe south of the border. Just struggling to understand how marcbo believes .243 to be barely adequate for deer and yet he suggests a smaller calibre rifle as suited to roe)

 

[Greener Jim]

It is only legal for 22 cal on roe in Scotland.

European factory loads or handloads for 6.5x55 or 7x57 are great middle grounds between .243 win and a 30 cal. That'd be my choice if I were looking for a low recoil round

Out of interest, I think it's pretty well established that you don't like .243 win for deer stalking but what about the other .243's such as 240 Wby.
Obviously meat damage is still a concern but does the extra energy make it more suitable?

 

[howa243]

Sure if you can own more a 243 is attractive but a 222 or 223 can be much better for foxes and Roe.
SS

That's odd.

Do you think there is a reason why there are so many used 243's for sale?

Yes. Because they are extremely popular as a first gun (partially due to the way the laws are applied here) and because people then get on the internet and 'learn' that they need something better.

 

[willie_gunn]

I don't remember how many people have said it but the word "adequate" is ofteen used.

Yes, but its usage also depends upon the other words in your vocabulary that you might use to qualify it....barely, almost, nearly, over, excessively

I agree with most of what you've written, but do note that 222 and 223 are not legal for roe in England, Wales and Northern Ireland whereas they are in Scotland. Another of our idiosyncrasies. Doubtless that is at least, in part, behind the prevalence of 243.

I use the 243 for muntjac and roe because I like it....but that's entirely personal and I recognise that others may think differently.

 

[Mungo]

I'll put it really simply for you:

1. .22 centrefire illegal for roe except in Scotland.

2. Police forces are very unwilling to grant .308 as first rifle.

3. Police forces also very unwilling to grant .308 if you only have roe on your primary permission.

So most people start with a .243. And many find that's all they need - or can afford.

With regard to numbers for sale: these track the numbers in circulation almost exactly. The most common rifle for sale is .22lr - and that very clearly is not going out of fashion!

 

[MARCBO]

So a .243 is marginal for deer, but a .222 is ok for Roe (deer).

lost me there

(Note, I'm aware of the illegality of .222 on roe south of the border. Just struggling to understand how marcbo believes .243 to be barely adequate for deer and yet he suggests a smaller calibre rifle as suited to roe)

Quite simple actually. I used the word "Deer" in reference to the group of animals as a whole while using "Roe" to speak directly of a species.

SS

 

[MARCBO]

I'll put it really simply for you:

1. .22 centrefire illegal for roe except in Scotland.

2. Police forces are very unwilling to grant .308 as first rifle.

3. Police forces also very unwilling to grant .308 if you only have roe on your primary permission.

So most people start with a .243. And many find that's all they need - or can afford.

With regard to numbers for sale: these track the numbers in circulation almost exactly. The most common rifle for sale is .22lr - and that very clearly is not going out of fashion!

Since the CF 22 is a problem outside of Scotland perhaps then new hunters acquiring their first gun should look for something in the category of the 7mm Mauser that is more suitable for all UK deer instead of taking a used 243 somebody is trying to get rid of. There are always reasons people have decided to sell their 243's, generally because they do not fulfill the owner's requirements. I suspect it is the self-serving individual trying to pawn off a 243 that leads to new hunters going that route.

Out of curiousity I searched Gunbroker here in the US for 308 and 243 rifles. The 308 search yielded 1,028 while the 243 search had 737. That might lead one to believe that there are more disappointed owners of 308's than 243's but the reality is that the 243 is significantly less popular since it is a kid/woman cartridge so the lower numbers of rifles available makes sense. Were there a way to determine what percentage of 243's vs 308's stay with the original owner the data would undoubtedly show the 243 changes hands much more often. Truth be told, I have owned a couple of Rem 700 243's for about as long as it took me to get the barrel unscrewed and replaced with a 308. Lots of used 243's in pawn shops that can be had cheap for donor action. The only times I have fired a 243 was when someone needed some assistance with their rifle and I was forced into it.


Ss

 

[pablo.222]

Since the CF 22 is a problem outside of Scotland perhaps then new hunters acquiring their first gun should look for something in the category of the 7mm Mauser that is more suitable for all UK deer instead of taking a used 243 somebody is trying to get rid of. There are always reasons people have decided to sell their 243's, generally because they do not fulfill the owner's requirements. I suspect it is the self-serving individual trying to pawn off a 243 that leads to new hunters going that route.

Out of curiousity I searched Gunbroker here in the US for 308 and 243 rifles. The 308 search yielded 1,028 while the 243 search had 737. That might lead one to believe that there are more disappointed owners of 308's than 243's but the reality is that the 243 is significantly less popular since it is a kid/woman cartridge so the lower numbers of rifles available makes sense. Were there a way to determine what percentage of 243's vs 308's stay with the original owner the data would undoubtedly show the 243 changes hands much more often. Truth be told, I have owned a couple of Rem 700 243's for about as long as it took me to get the barrel unscrewed and replaced with a 308. Lots of used 243's in pawn shops that can be had cheap for donor action. The only times I have fired a 243 was when someone needed some assistance with their rifle and I was forced into it.


Ss

As mungo just said police force in this country are very reluctant too give you something you dont really need. If it was that easy every one would have 308 and .243 and posdible alot more. But they dont allow it. Im in that situation myself. He said 308 is too much gun for just shooting roe deer. If i had red deer stalking no problem. So i opted for .243, simply because its easy on shoulder, good selection of ammo and it knocks roe down easily. And will do the job it i get to too reds. Perfect for whatni want.

 

[howa243]

The only times I have fired a 243 was when someone needed some assistance with their rifle and I was forced into it.


Ss

Well I think its good when people speak from personal experience.

 

[MARCBO]

As mungo just said police force in this country are very reluctant too give you something you dont really need. If it was that easy every one would have 308 and .243 and posdible alot more. But they dont allow it. Im in that situation myself. He said 308 is too much gun for just shooting roe deer. If i had red deer stalking no problem. So i opted for .243, simply because its easy on shoulder, good selection of ammo and it knocks roe down easily. And will do the job it i get to too reds. Perfect for whatni want.

In my experience few burocrats know guns and do not really know what you need. Are you saying your do? Are you also saying that it is a choice to get a 243 or nothing? Perhaps you could inspire some Nationalist sympathy should you refer to a 7mm rifle as a 275 Rigby.

SS

 

[MARCBO]

Well I think its good when people speak from personal experience.

Said I don't shoot one, lots of experience seeing others (kids/women) use them and the poor results. I like to buy 243's, they can be made into great 308s and generally without magazine work.

SS

 

[willie_gunn]

Said I don't shoot one, lots of experience seeing others (kids/women) use them and the poor results.

Maybe it's the kids/women who are the problem then.....

 

[willie_gunn]

That might lead one to believe that there are more disappointed owners of 308's than 243's but the reality is that the 243 is significantly less popular since it is a kid/woman cartridge so the lower numbers of rifles available makes sense.

There's that kid/woman thing again.

Psychology 101

 

[willie_gunn]

Growing up in the Western US most people I knew of using a 243 were women who had trouble with the recoil of anything larger...

That's three

 

[howa243]

Said I don't shoot one, lots of experience seeing others (kids/women) use them and the poor results. I like to buy 243's, they can be made into great 308s and generally without magazine work.

SS

Its funny that. For me shooting is one of those things that you need to do yourself before feeling confident enough to advise others. Obviously its possible to learn from others, but nothing can replace the grip, the sight picture and the squeeze of the trigger. Its a very personal thing.