Best caliber for mountain hunts?

[Coolhand]

30 years ago I worked as a contracted hunter. The contract was to cull approx 4000 'roos of a water conservation area of N.S.W. My oppo George and I filled the quota in approx 5 months.
The government supplied fuel and ammo ( a pallet of WW 22/250 ) we made our money from the hides, that was before PETA ruined it along with the price of Fox pelts.
My point is that when you shoot 30-40 roos each night and have to skin them, one soon knows when or when not to take the shot.
I have shot them from as close as 15ft to around 400 yards at night but 400 yards is not the norm. Sooner or later one likes to test ones skill but I soon wised up that 400 yards or even 300 yards at night is foolish, not because of the distance but because of the terrain from which to recover the carcass.
I am amused somewhat by this continuing debate, mostly because is not the title of this web site "The Stalking Directory" Stalking being the operative word.As for bowhunting , it is very popular here and most of the blokes I know that practice bowhunting are also skilled rifle hunters who want to broaden their experiences and combine both disciplines on their hunts.Most, if not all agree, that having to at times, crawl along on the ground to position themselves for a good killing shot provides much more satisfaction than LR shots taken with a firearm.

Furthermore , I have taken 2 long shots in my hunting life since the '70's ( as opposed to culling life ) both vivid in my memory because of the rarity and both were just around 300 paces , yes paces as I stepped both out to satisfy my curiosity. Both shots were on 2 troublesome feral boars that were rooting up the farmers sunflowers. Both were shot offhand.I had the confidence of youth and perhaps a modicum of skill and these boars had escaped unscathed on a number of occasions. A judgement call was made and the boars thankfully expired and thinking about it now having hunted in all terrains here and in N.Z. apart from those boars all game has been taken under 200 yards. Even now with a .260 Rem top class Kahles scope state of the art bipod , I still choose to " stalk " as close as I can get and if it means passing up a shot then so be it , the game will still be there tomorrow.
A very good friend of mine traveled to Mongolia on a guided Elk Hunt ( Altai Wapiti more correctly known ) the only trophy he saw that was worth the trouble was ranged at a shade under 500 yards with no possibility of stalking closer, too many cows between him and the Bull , he declined the shot , his decision based upon the factors present and the economics of his decision was not considered. And knowing my mate as I do , if possible he would have taken all day to get to a comfortable distance from which to take the shot, which knowing him would have been less than 200 yards.
That in my opinion is hunting ethics.

Mike.

 

[xavierdoc]

Good post, Mike.

I don't judge those who take long range shots; I choose to believe that they pass up a lot of those shots because conditions aren't right and their "ethical hunting compass" warns that they may not get a clean kill. Obviously this goes hand-in-hand with respect for the quarry.

 

[Coolhand]

Good post, Mike.

I don't judge those who take long range shots; I choose to believe that they pass up a lot of those shots because conditions aren't right and their "ethical hunting compass" warns that they may not get a clean kill. Obviously this goes hand-in-hand with respect for the quarry.

Xavierdoc , an appropriate dictum might just be " Judge not , less ye be judged." The hunting situation must always be the determinate and not ones ego or the influences of Hollywood Blockbusters
!

Mike.

 

[ofbiro]

Situation in south tyrol

In theory, as someone remarked, the combined use of range finder+ballistic calculator+reliable scope turret allows the use of all existing calibers. This is demonstrated by the Swiss hunters in Graubünden (or Grisons) Canton, where the minimum caliber is 10.5 mm (a bit larger than .375). But every now and then the beast is not cooperative and, after the hunter has readjusted the aim taking into account range, angle of site, outside temperature, moon phase and Zodiac sign, it moves closer or further. Very often the gunner, sorry the hunter, forgets to change all the settings and fires with ballistic data referred to, say 354 meters while the beast is actually grazing at 285. If the hunter is lucky it is a miss, otherwise it is a mess (wounded beast, need of a dog a.s.o.). This is not a theoretical situation, but quite a common incident on the mountains.
Moreover, just to feed the debate, let me list the calibers used in the small corner of the Alps (squeezed between Italy, Austria and Switzerland).
For many years the mountain kings were the 6.5x57 (with or without "R") and the 6.5 x 68. In the '70s we discovered the 7 Rem. Mag. and the 270 Wea. Mag. while somebody (not many) decided to use on chamois the .270 Win. already in service for roe and red. The fact that our county is the home of the Weatherby sole importer for Italy contributed to the purchase of other Weatherby calibers, from .224 to .300 and even .30-378.
The 7 STW had a moment of fame, but was quickly replace by the new "Short Magnum" (mainly Winchester, few Remington). Someone adopter the Remington Seven in 7 RSAUM: a nice short rifle, frequently offered for sale "as new" due to the recoil.
It is not rare to find users (recoil shy? spirit of contradiction?) using the 22-250 on chamois.
I sincerely wish I didn't bore the colleagues.

 

[SNAP]

I started shooting in spring, 1958, hunting in Sept. 1964 and working for our Forest Service and Fish-Wildlife in 1965. I have owned and loaded for about 150 rifles, currently own 35 rifles, almost all higher end or custom(ized) bolt big game types.

I was born and raised in the mountains of BC, started hiking in them in 1956 and have spent quite a few stints of as long as 3 months with no breaks living alone in some of BC's most remote mountains.

I have some idea of just what a "mountain rifle" is and all of mine are just that, even my two combo guns. I consider a 6lb. rifle to be as light as I want, this in a 7-08 or .260, mine is a full custom Remmy Seven STS, Micky Edge, 7-08 and it shoots well. I prefer my various .270s, .280s, .3006s and other such rounds in 7-7.75 lb. rifles, my .300s and .264WM go about 8lbs+ and my beloved .338WMs run around 8.5-9, while my 9.3x62s are the same and my .375H&Hs are still under 10 lbs.

For use in BC-type mountains, big animals, sudden shots often standing, fewer chances than you might expect and a LOT of Grizzlies, my usual choice for solo hunts are my pair of Dakota 76-.338WM rifles in synthetic stocks and wearing Leupold 1.75x6 HD scopes in QD Talleys. These weigh about 8.5 and are VERY well balanced so shoot well standing.

I like the .280Rem and .270Win. best for "smallbores", but often use my 7x57s for coastal deer as the meat is my main "trophy".

I won't get into the hassle here concerning differences between UK and other hunting types, BUT, I totally agree with my fellow Canadian on hunting and shooting at ranges in excess of 300 yds. I was a fair shot in my day, could put five quick .300 H&H shots into 3.5-4" standing consistently for years and years, my .338s about the same and my .375H&Hs ran about 4-5" all day.

You NEED to shoot quickly here and that means practicing with a rifle you can carry all day in country so rugged, bushy and wet that one must see it to understand what we cope with. Try packing a 12 lb. rifle through 8ft. Devil's Club or 15 ft. Black Spruce swamps, with frequent piles of warm Grizzly poop on the ground and then tell me about the advantages of heavy rifles.

 

[Klenchblaize]

We like straight talking on SD! And hell, sounds like you were there to tell us how it should be.

What rifle did you use back in the day ("1964 and working for our Forest Service and Fish-Wildlife in 1965")?

Oh, and welome to the site.

K

 

[SNAP]

We were NOT allowed to possess firearms on duty in the BCFS, when I started, April 15, 1965 and the discipline, dress code and deportment were VERY strict, derived from the British-Canadian Army standards of The Great War and WWII and YOUNG entry level chaps DID NOT break the rules.

I hated much of this, so, I resigned and was soon re-hired as *auxiliary staff* and then was posted to work I loved and was very successful at. At this time, I was asked to do a *Lookout* as very few of my age group would spend three months alone in a tiny shack, sometimes a tent, on top of a mountain, working 16-20 hrs. per day watching for smoke.

This, was then a VERY tough job, lonely, Grizzlies, packing your food, water, lamp fuel and everything else on a wooden frame pack on your back to a 7000 ft. L-O. I LOVED it, and I wanted to buy the first really GOOD gun that I had yet owned.

I had a few mediocre rifles and sold these, except my Savage 99-.308Win. A gunstore in Fernie, BC, where I was stationed had a NEW, gorgeous Browning Safari LE .30-06 and gave me a good deal on a trade, then allowed me to pay the balance in installments. I did so, PDQ, and THEN it was MINE.....

That, started the process of buying, trading, selling fine guns that still is an addiction for me, but, a GOOD CRF .30-06 was then and still is a VERY sound choice for a working rifle in BC. So, that is what I carried, every day, and it shot so well that I could consistently behead sitting Grouse with one shot at up to about 75 yds.

So, NOW, yesterday morning, I received a call from the Kimber wholesaler here in Canada, they are nextdoor in Alberta. They told me that they finally have both Montanas and a Mountain Ascent in .280AI......I called my usual dealer and he is bringing both models in and I will choose one for mine in a few days.....these are a *mountain rifle* by any standard.

Cheers!

 

[Muir]

You NEED to shoot quickly here and that means practicing with a rifle you can carry all day....
....tell me about the advantages of heavy rifles.

Truer words....~Muir

 

[alberta boy]

I started shooting in spring, 1958, hunting in Sept. 1964 and working for our Forest Service and Fish-Wildlife in 1965. I have owned and loaded for about 150 rifles, currently own 35 rifles, almost all higher end or custom(ized) bolt big game types.

I was born and raised in the mountains of BC, started hiking in them in 1956 and have spent quite a few stints of as long as 3 months with no breaks living alone in some of BC's most remote mountains.

I have some idea of just what a "mountain rifle" is and all of mine are just that, even my two combo guns. I consider a 6lb. rifle to be as light as I want, this in a 7-08 or .260, mine is a full custom Remmy Seven STS, Micky Edge, 7-08 and it shoots well. I prefer my various .270s, .280s, .3006s and other such rounds in 7-7.75 lb. rifles, my .300s and .264WM go about 8lbs+ and my beloved .338WMs run around 8.5-9, while my 9.3x62s are the same and my .375H&Hs are still under 10 lbs.

For use in BC-type mountains, big animals, sudden shots often standing, fewer chances than you might expect and a LOT of Grizzlies, my usual choice for solo hunts are my pair of Dakota 76-.338WM rifles in synthetic stocks and wearing Leupold 1.75x6 HD scopes in QD Talleys. These weigh about 8.5 and are VERY well balanced so shoot well standing.

I like the .280Rem and .270Win. best for "smallbores", but often use my 7x57s for coastal deer as the meat is my main "trophy".

I won't get into the hassle here concerning differences between UK and other hunting types, BUT, I totally agree with my fellow Canadian on hunting and shooting at ranges in excess of 300 yds. I was a fair shot in my day, could put five quick .300 H&H shots into 3.5-4" standing consistently for years and years, my .338s about the same and my .375H&Hs ran about 4-5" all day.

You NEED to shoot quickly here and that means practicing with a rifle you can carry all day in country so rugged, bushy and wet that one must see it to understand what we cope with. Try packing a 12 lb. rifle through 8ft. Devil's Club or 15 ft. Black Spruce swamps, with frequent piles of warm Grizzly poop on the ground and then tell me about the advantages of heavy rifles.

Excellent , more Canadians ! By the way , if you get tired of that Dakota in 338 , I'd be glad to give it a good home .
Just kidding .................unless you get tired of it , then I'm serious ha ha .

AB

 

[scrumbag]

Excellent , more Canadians ! By the way , if you get tired of that Dakota in 338 , I'd be glad to give it a good home .
Just kidding .................unless you get tired of it , then I'm serious ha ha .

AB

Surely the ONLY thing to have a .338WM in as a Winchester Model 70 Alaskan? Maybe the modern take on it with a matt stainless been blasted barrel, laminate salt and pepper stock and good robust iron sights.... Oh I need a lie down, I feel a variation coming on... or PKL offering to build me one...

 

[alberta boy]

The last time I hunted in South Dakota I was lying prone in foot-high stubble when a herd of elk came up from the canyon behind me and passed 30 ft to my right. Cows, immature bulls at the start. Then fork horns. They were all milling about me. There was bugling going on in all of the canyons and suddenly the sound of breaking tree limbs VERY close by; which turned out to be two gargantuan bulls fighting with horns locked. The pushed and whirled and got so close they were tossing clods of dirt over me as I lay there, immobile. I could smell them and hear their grunts. I had goose bumps and a rush of sheer adrenaline. There is nothing like being close up.~Muir

Now your talking !

AB

 

[alberta boy]

I have shot Sika coming for me in heavy cover at well under 10yds. Yes it is exiting. The problem I have with that type of shooting is difficult frontal shots at a moving animal. Fully adrenaline pumped up deer which might affect the meat quality.....and what for? a little excitement on our side? How selfish. For me a clean surgical 200yd shot off a bipod at an unaware grazing deer is the way to go. The rest of the deer can move off without stumbling into me and when all is clear I get the animal.
I do understand that in some parts of the world some hunters might only have the permit to shoot very few or maybe even only one deer a year and might want a special kick out of the experience to tell in the pub. I still think if we have to manage deer numbers, do it right for the animals not for ones own pleasure. Those who prioritise the own pleasure ("Kick") be it through overly long shots or the ultra close shots...should not be after deer in my opinion. In those cases we should leave deer management to professionals for the sake of animal welfare.
edi

Sorry Edi , professional deer culling is illegal here . I don't shoot at running game either , and to be totally honest , sport hunting is a selfish act no matter what school of thought you adhere to .

AB

 

[SNAP]

Well, I HAD five original P-64 Alaskans, still have the four nicest specimens all fitted into highend composite stocks, custom irons and Talley QDs. The rifles in each pair were made within a few days of each other, got them this way strictly by happenstance and my first, was purchased unfired from a retired dealer in my hometown, Jan. 1968.

This rifle is the one I started handloading for when I bought it, cost about L-100 then, a nice one now is about 25 times that price here.

I do have a custom STS Classic .338, basically the same rifle as the marketing-driven new Alaskans, it has several mods to bring the action closer to the P-64 in reliable function and is one of my pair of these, the other a U/L highly modded .308Win. These are my "truck guns" as I can leave them in my 4x4 Toyota Tacoma in BC's VERY wet climate with far less risk of rust.

Those "Alaskans" in STS and lam. handles are brutally heavy and I would not care to have one as MY "mountain rifle", but, the cartridge with today's superb bullets is simply outstanding.

BTW, IF, I were in the UK and wanted a .338WM built for me, I would search out a Parker-Hale Hussar in a short, belted magnum, probably the fine .308Norma and have the action stripped from it. I would have a GOOD cutrifled STS tube, Recknagel irons, McMillan std. fill stock fitted and Talley QD-SL rings, two pairs, holding two Leupold MK3-1.75x6 matte HD scopes.

I am on the track of one of these, very rare here as the action is the superb Brno-ZG-47 and factory adjusted for the cartridge. I do not "need" this, but, it has been my primary "dream rifle" for 30+ years. You might find one in "Merrye Englande" more easily than here in the MMBC*.




* MMBC=Miles and miles of bloody Canader, wot!

 

[alberta boy]

Surely the ONLY thing to have a .338WM in as a Winchester Model 70 Alaskan? Maybe the modern take on it with a matt stainless been blasted barrel, laminate salt and pepper stock and good robust iron sights.... Oh I need a lie down, I feel a variation coming on... or PKL offering to build me one...

Steady big fella ! I'll be home in a few weeks , we'll get you sorted lol

AB

 

[scrumbag]

Well, I HAD five original P-64 Alaskans, still have the four nicest specimens all fitted into highend composite stocks, custom irons and Talley QDs. The rifles in each pair were made within a few days of each other, got them this way strictly by happenstance and my first, was purchased unfired from a retired dealer in my hometown, Jan. 1968.

This rifle is the one I started handloading for when I bought it, cost about L-100 then, a nice one now is about 25 times that price here.

I do have a custom STS Classic .338, basically the same rifle as the marketing-driven new Alaskans, it has several mods to bring the action closer to the P-64 in reliable function and is one of my pair of these, the other a U/L highly modded .308Win. These are my "truck guns" as I can leave them in my 4x4 Toyota Tacoma in BC's VERY wet climate with far less risk of rust.

Those "Alaskans" in STS and lam. handles are brutally heavy and I would not care to have one as MY "mountain rifle", but, the cartridge with today's superb bullets is simply outstanding.

BTW, IF, I were in the UK and wanted a .338WM built for me, I would search out a Parker-Hale Hussar in a short, belted magnum, probably the fine .308Norma and have the action stripped from it. I would have a GOOD cutrifled STS tube, Recknagel irons, McMillan std. fill stock fitted and Talley QD-SL rings, two pairs, holding two Leupold MK3-1.75x6 matte HD scopes.

I am on the track of one of these, very rare here as the action is the superb Brno-ZG-47 and factory adjusted for the cartridge. I do not "need" this, but, it has been my primary "dream rifle" for 30+ years. You might find one in "Merrye Englande" more easily than here in the MMBC*.




* MMBC=Miles and miles of bloody Canader, wot!

Envy is a terrible thing SNAP and that does indeed sound a lovely set up. Though I'd be tempted with some European glass and a little more top end magnification myself...

Steady big fella ! I'll be home in a few weeks , we'll get you sorted lol

AB

AB, you're right, I'm going to have a cup of tea and a sit down

 

[alberta boy]

Well, I HAD five original P-64 Alaskans, still have the four nicest specimens all fitted into highend composite stocks, custom irons and Talley QDs. The rifles in each pair were made within a few days of each other, got them this way strictly by happenstance and my first, was purchased unfired from a retired dealer in my hometown, Jan. 1968.

This rifle is the one I started handloading for when I bought it, cost about L-100 then, a nice one now is about 25 times that price here.

I do have a custom STS Classic .338, basically the same rifle as the marketing-driven new Alaskans, it has several mods to bring the action closer to the P-64 in reliable function and is one of my pair of these, the other a U/L highly modded .308Win. These are my "truck guns" as I can leave them in my 4x4 Toyota Tacoma in BC's VERY wet climate with far less risk of rust.

Those "Alaskans" in STS and lam. handles are brutally heavy and I would not care to have one as MY "mountain rifle", but, the cartridge with today's superb bullets is simply outstanding.

BTW, IF, I were in the UK and wanted a .338WM built for me, I would search out a Parker-Hale Hussar in a short, belted magnum, probably the fine .308Norma and have the action stripped from it. I would have a GOOD cutrifled STS tube, Recknagel irons, McMillan std. fill stock fitted and Talley QD-SL rings, two pairs, holding two Leupold MK3-1.75x6 matte HD scopes.

I am on the track of one of these, very rare here as the action is the superb Brno-ZG-47 and factory adjusted for the cartridge. I do not "need" this, but, it has been my primary "dream rifle" for 30+ years. You might find one in "Merrye Englande" more easily than here in the MMBC*.




* MMBC=Miles and miles of bloody Canader, wot!

I just gave one ( PH Hussar)to a young friend of mine , there's pics on this site somewhere . I've been looking at some ZG- 47s on Tradex Canada , none of them are chambered in anything belted though . They had one in 8X68 but it was gone before I had a chance , next time .

AB

 

[SNAP]

I had a dozen ZGs and 21/22 rifles, sold several and now have two very cherry ZGs in 9.3x62, factory with polished receivers, Satterlee 3-pos. safeties and Micky/Rimrock stocks. I also have a mint ZG carbine in 7x57, Dakota safety, finish as above and going into a Bansner. One of my 9.3 came from Tradex, a friend bought it and then sold to me.

I just turned down a nice ZG-8x64B, and if you know Mitch K. he has an 8x68, built by Ralf; I have had a LOT of work done by these gentlemen and they do it VERY well. Ain't "cheap", tho'.

Was your Hussar a short mag version?????

 

[Southern]

A Brno 22F in 7x57 Mauser is a vintage mountain rifle for sure. I had an 8x60S and sold it to get a 7x64 carbine with set triggers and claw mounts. What a nice action the 47 is.

 

[alberta boy]

I had a dozen ZGs and 21/22 rifles, sold several and now have two very cherry ZGs in 9.3x62, factory with polished receivers, Satterlee 3-pos. safeties and Micky/Rimrock stocks. I also have a mint ZG carbine in 7x57, Dakota safety, finish as above and going into a Bansner. One of my 9.3 came from Tradex, a friend bought it and then sold to me.

I just turned down a nice ZG-8x64B, and if you know Mitch K. he has an 8x68, built by Ralf; I have had a LOT of work done by these gentlemen and they do it VERY well. Ain't "cheap", tho'.

Was your Hussar a short mag version?????

You have good taste my friend , I had a 21 H in 7 X 57 that Ralph restocked , your right , they're not cheap but they're worth it . It now belongs to an old hunting buddy who REALLY wanted it , that's OK , he's got a last year production Brennecke in 9.3X64 that I REALLY want .
My Hussar was a short action (308 win ) with a three digit serial number . If you go on CanadianGunnitz at all , you'd probably know the man I got it from . He goes by Rembo on CGN and lives in the Edmonton area . He is a pre 64 model 70 freak and has an amazing collection , including a cherry Feather Weight in 270 that he likes to taunt me with . He sent me an email last week about a pre war M 70 in 300 H&H he just bought from someone in BC , the worlds a small place brother . Who knows , we may have crossed paths .

AB

 

[alberta boy]

A Brno 22F in 7x57 Mauser is a vintage mountain rifle for sure. I had an 8x60S and sold it to get a 7x64 carbine with set triggers and claw mounts. What a nice action the 47 is.

Yes they are . The ZG 47 is one of my favourites . And just to get this thread back on subject , they make great mountain rifles ............and so would that M70 in 270 win , oh well .
AB