Best caliber for mountain hunts?

[ejg]

Drug trafficking is a societal crime, as well as a Civil crime in most countries. Bow hunting is not a societal crime. It is not legal in your country but it is here, and is practiced by many dedicated, law abiding citizens. Suggesting an equivalency between the drug trafficking and bow hunting is insulting to those of us who engage in it.~Muir

You see the difference is, in our country they would not be regarded as law abiding citizens. Some drug farming transport and selling is on the other hand totally legal in other countries such as Holland.
Hey, last week I drove around 2000km in four days in Germany. Average speed around 100mph, top speeds 150mph...totally legal.
Different countries.... different laws.

edi

 

[Southern]

None of us from the USA and Canada are advocating bow hunting or handgun hunting for the UK. We are merely pointing out that from our own experience, that it is possible to stalk closer, otherwise our cave man ancestors would have starved to death. And the fact that people like Chuck Adams have taken every species of deer and sheep and bear with a bow and arrow, and others have done the same with muzzle loading rifles, shows it is not a fluke.

I suspect that much of the long-range hunting we read about is due to people like Roy Weatherby promoting their magnum rifles, and the modern hunter who can afford to fly into an area, hire a guide who has already scouted game, and take him to it for a brief hunt. I will bet that long-time game keepers in England or Scotland will tell you the same about today, unlike in the past, when hunters would go out with them for a week or ten days of hard hunting. it is part of our busy lives, and wealthy hunters, and magazines who publish stories about "dream hunts".

It is not only the mountains. It is the difference between a hunter who wants to bag the biggest lion with the most majestic mane, vs the hunter who has to track and kill the particular old, scarred up lion that has been taking cattle and killing the farmers. Which do you think is more difficult? Both hunters may be equally satisfied if they succeed; they have a different station and perspective of life.

 

[ejg]

I hate to see any discussion get derailed into a cultural clash, but I blundered into this bowhunting controversy before. As Muir says, bowhunting is not unethical. Crimes are supposed to be defined by legal recognition that some activities are unethical and dangerous to society. What we have today, all over the world, are crimes which have nothing to do with ethics or practicality, which are of no benefit to society, to hunting, nor to wildlife. They are the arbitrary moralism of bigots, and the proof is that they outlaw something which was not only legal for centuries, but actually a mandatory skill.

Ethics acrue on an individual basis. For someone who is unskilled to shoot at a deer at close range with a handgun is unethical, whereas for an Olympic pistol shooter to kill it with one shot at 100 yards is not.

You are right, but as long as we learn something from each other even if the debate is hefty....
I'll hopefully also be over in the US this year to visit family, possibly a bit of handgun shooting.

edi

 

[ejg]

None of us from the USA and Canada are advocating bow hunting or handgun hunting for the UK. We are merely pointing out that from our own experience, that it is possible to stalk closer, otherwise our cave man ancestors would have starved to death. And the fact that people like Chuck Adams have taken every species of deer and sheep and bear with a bow and arrow, and others have done the same with muzzle loading rifles, shows it is not a fluke.

I suspect that much of the long-range hunting we read about is due to people like Roy Weatherby promoting their magnum rifles, and the modern hunter who can afford to fly into an area, hire a guide who has already scouted game, and take him to it for a brief hunt. I will bet that long-time game keepers in England or Scotland will tell you the same about today, unlike in the past, when hunters would go out with them for a week or ten days of hard hunting. it is part of our busy lives, and wealthy hunters, and magazines who publish stories about "dream hunts".

It is not only the mountains. It is the difference between a hunter who wants to bag the biggest lion with the most majestic mane, vs the hunter who has to track and kill the particular old, scarred up lion that has been taking cattle and killing the farmers. Which do you think is more difficult? Both hunters may be equally satisfied if they succeed; they have a different station and perspective of life.

I am with you on stalk closer, as in try get from 300 to at least 200yds if easy to do so without compromising a good shooting position even to 100 or so yds. What I do not like is hunters seeing the stalk as the being the most important part of deer management. Often leading to a missed opportunity, bad shot or just make deer skittish.
I visited friends on a game range in South Africa two years ago, they asked me if I wanted to shoot anything... I declined. I rather grabbed the 22 and took a few pesky monkeys around the farm that they were trying to get rid of.
I take out guests every now and then, some are more experienced and much better hunters than myself, some are lousy shots, some suffer buck fever... haven't had one yet that wanted to take an overly long shot.
I can't say much to bow hunting other than my guess is that only few are good at it and that one needs to hone the skills even more than with a rifle.
edi

 

[Canadian1]

What I do not like is hunters seeing the stalk as the being the most important part of deer management. Often leading to a missed opportunity, bad shot or just make deer skittish.

A missed opportunity is a natural component of fair chase.

And I fail to understand how a bad shot is a consequence of getting closer???

Deer are going to run regardless of whether you shoot them from 400m or 20m.

You're entitled to your opinions and I understand they have developed out of different hunting circumstances than mine, Muir's or Southern's.

Most important is that we all take reasonable and ethical shots at game animals regardless of when, how or where we hunt. All is good.

 

[ejg]

Canadian,
If I look back in our hunting group, (myself included) most botched shots at deer were from short range as in under 100yds. We often have to shoot short range in heavily overgrown areas or when walking up deer in plantations. This is when it can get messy. On the one side we are under pressure to remove deer out of certain areas or fenced off areas on the other hand try avoid bad shots. A much cleaner approach seemed (if possible) to let the areas settle for a few weeks and find the highest overlooking spot. Set up with a long range rig on a sunny morning and wait for deer to step into the sun rays. Even at around 300yd if have a much higher success rate. Also, when looking back most times we are called to track a lost deer it was from close range.
Of course most deer are shot around 100yds meaning one would expect higher botch rates...
In our hunter shooting tests most hunters shoot way better off the bipod at 100yds than kneeling/sitting at 60yds or standing off sticks at 40yds.
If one doubles each of the groups to simulate 200yds bipod etc. one will already in the theory see where problems come from. Being realistic I do not expect any larger percentage of hunters ever reaching even closely the off-hand shooting ability of what we hear from Muir for example. That is why I think it would be better for the average hunter to shoot at slightly longer ranges at an unaware deer from a well rested position vs walking in as close as possible. Stalking in close means what? When is it close enough? For most it is when the deer put's it's head up and looks in your direction...isn't it? Then the shot has to be quick.

Example of one of my outlook spots with my longer range rifle. The ground in the valley is very boggy has high grass. Our deer small and move a lot. In this valley alone we shot 18 deer in one season.

edi

 

[Greener Jim]

Edi, you are much more experienced than me in deer stalking so I'm not going to argue with you (nor Canadian, Muir or Southern) but you seem to be saying that as short range shots are 'bodged' more often that it's better to take longer range shots off a solid rest.
Surely this is just adding in a new set of variables?

At less than 100 yards it's closer and therefore easier but people are less accurate (in general) offhand or sticks. So people who don't practice enough botch shots.
At 200+ yards off a bipod it is much more stable but environmental variables come in to play much more. So people who don't practice (or don't have modern tech in lue of skill) botch shots.

Both require skill but just different skills (and equipment). I know which I'd prefer but that's irrelevant.
When you're doing a job, you take whatever safe shot that's within your capabilities.
If it's more for recreation or one for the pot, you can afford to choose your methods. Whether that be lie in wait as per your picture or to stalk slowly and painfully after woodland fallow.

 

[Canadian1]

Both require skill but just different skills (and equipment). I know which I'd prefer but that's irrelevant.
When you're doing a job, you take whatever safe shot that's within your capabilities.
If it's more for recreation or one for the pot, you can afford to choose your methods. Whether that be lie in wait as per your picture or to stalk slowly and painfully after woodland fallow.

I think that gets to the heart of it--different approaches.

If it's a job then you are going to choose the methods that are most pragmatic.

For me, hunting means entering into an ancient and sacred relationship with nature. I have the flat shooting rifle with telescopic sights thus it is up to me to set self-imposed limits on my method--this also has the lovely consequence of usually extending my stay in the wilderness.

Stalking close usually means, for me, around 75-100 yards. Bowhunting is closer and much more challenging, but the season (primitive) corresponds with the best eating game.

ejg, I have nothing bad to say about your method, and it makes sense. Our methods have emerged out of very different circumstances.

What part of the country is that by the way?

 

[Greener Jim]

...I have the flat shooting rifle with telescopic sights thus it is up to me to set self-imposed limits on my methody...

I don't think I have your self discipline. If I got a whizzbangscoped thing bit by bit my range would increase.
Hence my open sighted rifle with a rainbow trajectory!

 

[shuggie]

I think the only true answer lies way the person behind the gun,if its 100yds or over 300yds he is the one who should know his limits and when not to take the shot,we can only comment when we know all the facts .I once got ask what is the secret of shooting at longer ranges,my reply was knowing when not to take the shot.

 

[ejg]

Jim in all likelihood a deer might not have heard, spotted you if you are further away. One often has time to find a good rested spot to take the shot. Getting closer can mean alerting the deer, certainly the chances are higher than just taking the shot if all is safe at the say 200yds.
When approaching chances are very high one either stumbles across another animal or has difficulties finding the first seen animal and eventually possibly being caught in a position that only offers an off-hand shot. For most the 200yd prone shot produces better groups than 50yd off-hand shot. Not mentioning a bit of buck fever...


Canadian1,
that is Kerry, West coast of Ireland. In that picture you see a 2m deer "proof" fence in the background as there is a plantation on the far side of it with oak trees etc. It is a very rough piece of ground that is also very steep and full of water holes. Some ferns grow over 6ft high and the deer that have made tunnels through it. Very difficult to get the deer out or shot. We had managed to keep it clear for about 5 years but recon they have the upper hand now. Tree's are hopefully big enough anyway. We had something like 9 Hurricane force storms last season which really made a mess of parts of the fence. I prefer to use my 30-30 Winchester in this terrain when we walk it through. A bit like at driven hunts it can get messy. We only do that type of hunting in plantations for crop protection.
Part of the terrain looks like this and is difficult to hunt, deer have the upper hand. Picture taken in Summer of a heavily pregnant Sika Hind.
Sorry for the off topic.
edi

 

[interceptor]

I think the only true answer lies way the person behind the gun,if its 100yds or over 300yds he is the one who should know his limits and when not to take the shot,we can only comment when we know all the facts .I once got ask what is the secret of shooting at longer ranges,my reply was knowing when not to take the shot.

Right on the button mate!!!
As an old saying goes " please dont judge me by your standards "
Food for thought methinks!!!!
Thanks for the debate gents and take care....
Ray.

 

[Muir]

You are right, but as long as we learn something from each other even if the debate is hefty....
I'll hopefully also be over in the US this year to visit family, possibly a bit of handgun shooting.

edi

I hope you have fun. I was a handgunner before I was a rifleman, I think. I truly love the challenge of hunting with a hnadgun. I will be very sad when the eyes aren't up to it anymore.~Muir

 

[Klenchblaize]

Canadian1,
that is Kerry, West coast of Ireland. In that picture you see a 2m deer "proof" fence in the background as there is a plantation on the far side of it with oak trees etc. It is a very rough piece of ground that is also very steep and full of water holes. Some ferns grow over 6ft high and the deer that have made tunnels through it. Very difficult to get the deer out or shot. We had managed to keep it clear for about 5 years but recon they have the upper hand now. Tree's are hopefully big enough anyway. We had something like 9 Hurricane force storms last season which really made a mess of parts of the fence. I prefer to use my 30-30 Winchester in this terrain when we walk it through. A bit like at driven hunts it can get messy. We only do that type of hunting in plantations for crop protection.
Part of the terrain looks like this and is difficult to hunt, deer have the upper hand. Picture taken in Summer of a heavily pregnant Sika Hind.
Sorry for the off topic.
edi

That's my kind of stalking!

Would even justify acquiring a fast handling stutzen in some large backwoods US calibre and installing a wee 1.5 powered scope in super low rings & mounts.

Perfect terrain for the recreational stalker who would rather not spend his/her day in a high seat.

K

 

[ejg]

I hope you have fun. I was a handgunner before I was a rifleman, I think. I truly love the challenge of hunting with a hnadgun. I will be very sad when the eyes aren't up to it anymore.~Muir

My experience with a handgun is very limited, only hunting ever with a handgun was pigeons with a little P22....years ago.
Yep got to look after the eyes. So far I'm OK but feel my right eye is not quite as bright as the left when looking through a scope.
edi

 

[ejg]

That's my kind of stalking!

Would even justify acquiring a fast handling stutzen in some large backwoods US calibre and installing a wee 1.5 powered scope in super low rings & mounts.

Perfect terrain for the recreational stalker who would rather not spend his/her day in a high seat.

K

I could not stick a high seat. Only problem with a nice Stutzen is that it just about always rains, one trips and falls constantly with the high growth and brambles . Alberta Boy was good enough to send me a plastic stock for my Winchester to save the nice wooden stock which was starting to get wacked up.
edi

 

[User00026]

Jim in all likelihood a deer might not have heard, spotted you if you are further away. One often has time to find a good rested spot to take the shot. Getting closer can mean alerting the deer, certainly the chances are higher than just taking the shot if all is safe at the say 200yds.
When approaching chances are very high one either stumbles across another animal or has difficulties finding the first seen animal and eventually possibly being caught in a position that only offers an off-hand shot. For most the 200yd prone shot produces better groups than 50yd off-hand shot. Not mentioning a bit of buck fever...


Canadian1,
that is Kerry, West coast of Ireland. In that picture you see a 2m deer "proof" fence in the background as there is a plantation on the far side of it with oak trees etc. It is a very rough piece of ground that is also very steep and full of water holes. Some ferns grow over 6ft high and the deer that have made tunnels through it. Very difficult to get the deer out or shot. We had managed to keep it clear for about 5 years but recon they have the upper hand now. Tree's are hopefully big enough anyway. We had something like 9 Hurricane force storms last season which really made a mess of parts of the fence. I prefer to use my 30-30 Winchester in this terrain when we walk it through. A bit like at driven hunts it can get messy. We only do that type of hunting in plantations for crop protection.
Part of the terrain looks like this and is difficult to hunt, deer have the upper hand. Picture taken in Summer of a heavily pregnant Sika Hind.
Sorry for the off topic.
edi

extraction looks like a b1tch Edi!

 

[Klenchblaize]

extraction looks like a b1tch Edi!

The more mature stalker will have a plan!



K

 

[ejg]

Bring a friend...

or bring a kid along
deer was shot right up top in the gorse.

or take the bird dog along, don't tell em deer are too big to retrieve...

edi

 

[Muir]

The more mature stalker will have a plan!
View attachment 54067


K

Gad! I have those exact wool pants and jacket. Vintage Woolich. If I didn't know better I'd a thought the smart one in the photo was my dad. ~Muir