Best caliber for mountain hunts?

[interceptor]

Like it lol
Here you go Muir , sorry no snow but a nice little ledge!!!! ( a hobby that comes in handy )

All the best....

 

[Muir]

You can keep that craziness, Amigo! Nice work! ~Muir

 

[interceptor]

You can keep that craziness, Amigo! Nice work! ~Muir

Thats very kind of you sir respect to you too

 

[Canadian1]

I have shot Sika coming for me in heavy cover at well under 10yds. Yes it is exiting. The problem I have with that type of shooting is difficult frontal shots at a moving animal. Fully adrenaline pumped up deer which might affect the meat quality.....and what for? a little excitement on our side? How selfish. For me a clean surgical 200yd shot off a bipod at an unaware grazing deer is the way to go. The rest of the deer can move off without stumbling into me and when all is clear I get the animal.
I do understand that in some parts of the world some hunters might only have the permit to shoot very few or maybe even only one deer a year and might want a special kick out of the experience to tell in the pub. I still think if we have to manage deer numbers, do it right for the animals not for ones own pleasure. Those who prioritise the own pleasure ("Kick") be it through overly long shots or the ultra close shots...should not be after deer in my opinion. In those cases we should leave deer management to professionals for the sake of animal welfare.
edi

What a load of BS!

First off, my experience was not the norm. Most times if stalking I get within 50-150 yards of the animal. 200 yard shots are rare and 300 yard shots are exceptions. Your remarks are assumptions and nothing more.

I guess if you're culling semi-domesticated deer then it doesn't really matter.

Getting close is part of making sure you minimize external variables that could affect bullet placement. It's also in a hunter's heart--I guess you just don't understand.

 

[shuggie]

What a load of BS!

First off, my experience was not the norm. Most times if stalking I get within 50-150 yards of the animal. 200 yard shots are rare and 300 yard shots are exceptions. Your remarks are assumptions and nothing more.

I guess if you're culling semi-domesticated deer then it doesn't really matter.

Getting close is part of making sure you minimize external variables that could affect bullet placement. It's also in a hunter's heart--I guess you just don't understand.

It seems to me if folks dont abide by your way of shooting ,they should not be shooting ,if you make comments like some you have posted you have to know all the facts ,whats right for you might not be right for someone else

 

[Canadian1]

It seems to me if folks dont abide by your way of shooting ,they should not be shooting ,if you make comments like some you have posted you have to know all the facts ,whats right for you might not be right for someone else

Absolutely, and I understand that deer stalking in some areas of the UK is quite a bit different from in Canada (and other parts of the UK). Regulations, herd behaviour, etc. all effect how the professional culler goes about his business. I get it if you need to take longer shots with a suppressor to avoid upsetting the herd. What I was disputing was EJG's backhanded assertion that hunters who choose to get close or pass are doing it for a "kick".

I suppose he is anti bowhunting then too...

 

[Muir]

I get close because it's the nature of the game when shooting off hand: Which is about the only shot you get in the places I hunt. I don't carry sticks or bipods but I do practice off hand year long for my two hunting seasons and four deer. Getting close lets me make my shots count. There is no kick other than that of a successful stalk and a good kill. Which, I'm thinking, would not happen were I shooting a herd from a distance from a rest. Maybe I do get a kick from it in the form of satisfaction and pride. I think so.~Muir

 

[Southern]

Yes, it is a thrill, and always has been. When I can, I try to see how close I can get to game, even without a gun or bow.
Here are some deer I saw in the edge of the woods, from the far side of this photo, about 250 yards. The wind was against me, so I went to a logging road, then though the dry woods, about 150 yards more, and circled upwind of the deer, who had now moved out in the grass to grass. I had my BLR, but unfortunately, only 5 does and 2 small bucks. I slipped back out without spooking them, as I needed to go to work.

Then, here are some turkeys I heard clucking in the mountains of NC. It was not in season, but I got within 30 feet of them, and zoomed in my camera a little bit, so it would look like it did to me, and still have all of the flock in there. Again, I slipped out without spooking them. It is like shooting targets or small game at long range with a .22; maintains skills, builds confidence, and same thrill as when the chips are down.

And until I got my Tikka T3 in 7mm-08, my favorite bad weather and rough terrain mountain rifle was this FR-8 Spanish Mountain Carbine in 7.62 NATO...for $100.00.

 

[Muir]

Yes, it is a thrill, and always has been. When I can, I try to see how close I can get to game, even without a gun or bow.
Here are some deer I saw in the edge of the woods, from the far side of this photo, about 250 yards. The wind was against me, so I went to a logging road, then though the dry woods, about 150 yards more, and circled upwind of the deer, who had now moved out in the grass to grass. I had my BLR, but unfortunately, only 5 does and 2 small bucks. I slipped back out without spooking them, as I needed to go to work.

Then, here are some turkeys I heard clucking in the mountains of NC. It was not in season, but I got within 30 feet of them, and zoomed in my camera a little bit, so it would look like it did to me, and still have all of the flock in there. Again, I slipped out without spooking them. It is like shooting targets or small game at long range with a .22; maintains skills, builds confidence, and same thrill as when the chips are down.

And until I got my Tikka T3 in 7mm-08, my favorite bad weather and rough terrain mountain rifle was this FR-8 Spanish Mountain Carbine in 7.62 NATO...for $100.00.
View attachment 53916View attachment 53917View attachment 53918

I've got an FR-8 in the back of my gunroom. Minty bore and very accurate.~Muir

 

[Southern]

The FR-8 is short, accurate, has rugged iron sights with setting for 100, 200, 300, and 300 meters, and a muzzle protected with a NATO thread flash hider. It fits entirely behind one's back, with nothing to catch on a limb or rock. The Mauser action can lock the bolt with is safety.

The archetype of the Alpine rifle is the Mannlicher carbine, with 20-inch barrel, which fits right behind the hunter's back. Accurate, rugged sights, detachable scope to be carried in a separate pouch.

I see a pattern here

 

[ejg]

What a load of BS!

First off, my experience was not the norm. Most times if stalking I get within 50-150 yards of the animal. 200 yard shots are rare and 300 yard shots are exceptions. Your remarks are assumptions and nothing more.

I guess if you're culling semi-domesticated deer then it doesn't really matter.

Getting close is part of making sure you minimize external variables that could affect bullet placement. It's also in a hunter's heart--I guess you just don't understand.

So where did you hit that bull elk after being as you explained in this mental condition : 'One of my most memorable experiences hunting was calling in a big bull elk during high rut. He was about 20 yards away and started bugling. My skin felt detached, hair raised all over my body and I got quite emotional--damn near a spiritual experience.'
Are you saying this is a good thing? shooting at animal when your body and mind is almost out of control? As I said before you think we are all stupid. I would not hunt with you in a fit.
All I am hearing from your hunting methods is a way of satisfying your needs/wants. I would have more respect for hunters who put the welfare of an animal at first place. Maybe you should think about getting some computer games.

edi
ps. bow hunting is illegal where we are, like drug running and other illegal activities.... why would I advocate such activities?

 

[ejg]

The FR-8 is short, accurate, has rugged iron sights with setting for 100, 200, 300, and 300 meters, and a muzzle protected with a NATO thread flash hider. It fits entirely behind one's back, with nothing to catch on a limb or rock. The Mauser action can lock the bolt with is safety.

The archetype of the Alpine rifle is the Mannlicher carbine, with 20-inch barrel, which fits right behind the hunter's back. Accurate, rugged sights, detachable scope to be carried in a separate pouch.


I see a pattern here

After using a Mauser actioned rifle with a 45 deg flag safety, 20" 308, detachable mag and the original two stage trigger (tuned)...the set up really grew on me. Some newer developments of rifles seem steps in the wrong direction if one compares now. We now have aftermarket safeties for Remington and T3 that bring us back closer to the Mauser safety. Many hunters prefer safeties that act on the firing pin rather than on the trigger.
A Mauser action is by far not the worst choice for a mountain or woodland rifle however I would prefer a modern barrel and fitted into a lighter waterproof stock.

Many Mauser rifles in Germany are converted to "Nachsuchebuechse" (follow up rifle, to track wounded deer/boar) . These are often chopped to 16-20" and used with open sights. Front sling swivel is attached to the muzzle to avoid hang ups when crawling through the thick. These are mostly used for short range shooting.
edi

 

[Southern]

ejg -

As Muir said about his nearly new condition FR-8, they are very accurate.

I have three of them, one was unissued. With that one, I have shot groups of all shots on top of each other at 100 yards, with the iron sites ( a V, and then 3 apertures on a wheel). Front sight is a tapered post, almost to a point, just a little flat on top. The barrels are hammer forged, for the CETME battle rifle, predecessor of the HK G3. The Mauser engineers who created HK had fled to Spain in 1945 and set things up there.

I have a Steyr Model M Stutzen in .270, have had Mannlicer carbines in 6.5x54 and .3006, BRNO carbines with set triggers in 8x60S, and 7x64 (now), all with flat spoon handle bolts that stay out of the way. My M70 Compact and BLR are both 20-inch, in 7mm-08, very light and handy in rough terrain and woods. If you look at the picture of the turkeys above, this is at 2,700 feet, on a plateau, and you can see how thick the woods are. It is heaver hardwoods on 45-degree slopes and vertical rock faces with trails, to get there. Visibility ranges from 25 yards to 2 miles as you make your way.

I ordered a new Steyr in 7x64 with iron sights. It checks all the boxes in terms of accuracy, sights, trigger, tough stock and waterproof finish. But it is heavy, about 9 lbs with a normal scope on it.

To me, the ideal rifle would be a Tikka T3 Lite in 7x64 or .280 Remington with good open sights and a moderate scope like a Zeiss Terra 2-7x, in stainless steel, but Tikka would not ship one to the USA just for me.

 

[Muir]

edi
ps. bow hunting is illegal where we are, like drug running and other illegal activities.... why would I advocate such activities?

Not a fair comparison of activities, Edi.~Muir

 

[Canadian1]

So where did you hit that bull elk after being as you explained in this mental condition : 'One of my most memorable experiences hunting was calling in a big bull elk during high rut. He was about 20 yards away and started bugling. My skin felt detached, hair raised all over my body and I got quite emotional--damn near a spiritual experience.'
Are you saying this is a good thing? shooting at animal when your body and mind is almost out of control? As I said before you think we are all stupid. I would not hunt with you in a fit.
All I am hearing from your hunting methods is a way of satisfying your needs/wants. I would have more respect for hunters who put the welfare of an animal at first place. Maybe you should think about getting some computer games.

edi
ps. bow hunting is illegal where we are, like drug running and other illegal activities.... why would I advocate such activities?

I never said my mind and body were "out of control"--nice try manipulating the discourse. I had a raised sense of awareness, but always in control otherwise I wouldn't take the shot. It's pretty obvious you're grasping at straws here...

Stalking close is an ethical consideration. Taking a shot under the best possible conditions (not just "good enough") is an ethical consideration. Being close is a moral consideration as well, for me at least, insofar that when you are up close and personal with a sentient being that you are about to take the life of, your appreciation for that animal (and future animals) increases. This is, as you say, putting the "welfare of the animal at first place". My shot was a textbook heart lung shot with a .44 caliber wadcutter.

And no love lost, I wouldn't hunt with you either. Too soft. You wouldn't last a day.

 

[Canadian1]

Not a fair comparison of activities, Edi.~Muir

Just another one of ejg's informal fallacies of which his posts are fraught with.

 

[Canadian1]

For clarification; my personal stance on the ethical limits of hunting distance is not cut and dry. I do think it is dependent on the situation, shooter and game. I think a good maxim, however, is to get as close as necessary to ensure the highest chance of a clean kill. If that means taking a 200 yard shot then so be it--provided the shooter is capable.

My two main priorities when I am in the field is my personal safety and the safety of the people around me, and the conservation and welfare of the land and game. My admiration and respect for the latter two is paramount and the biggest reason why I hunt as opposed to "stalking" my "meat at the crowded market instead of in the green woods or the cool marshes", in the words of great Col. Townsend Whelen.

My personal self-imposed upper limit is 300 yards. I can shoot accurately beyond that, but I choose not to hunt beyond that range. If I can't get closer, I generally pass on the shot. It is up to the individual to decide for himself what is right for him or her!

Like I said, if you are getting payed to cull a semi-domesticated herd of deer, your pragmatism and approach will probably be different.

 

[ejg]

Not a fair comparison of activities, Edi.~Muir

The sad truth is that illegal = illegal in court. Both activities are illegal, judge won't make one offence "semi" illegal. Use a crossbow in Ireland and it will on top be regarded a firearm. They'll throw the book at you.

I know it is legal to take a deer with a bow in your part of the world. Might not be my first choice to put a deer down. As per usual some might be very proficient at it others maybe not.
edi

 

[Muir]

The sad truth is that illegal = illegal in court. Both activities are illegal, judge won't make one offence "semi" illegal. Use a crossbow in Ireland and it will on top be regarded a firearm. They'll throw the book at you.

I know it is legal to take a deer with a bow in your part of the world. Might not be my first choice to put a deer down. As per usual some might be very proficient at it others maybe not.
edi

Drug trafficking is a societal crime, as well as a Civil crime in most countries. Bow hunting is not a societal crime. It is not legal in your country but it is here, and is practiced by many dedicated, law abiding citizens. Suggesting an equivalency between the drug trafficking and bow hunting is insulting to those of us who engage in it.~Muir

 

[Southern]

I hate to see any discussion get derailed into a cultural clash, but I blundered into this bowhunting controversy before. As Muir says, bowhunting is not unethical. Crimes are supposed to be defined by legal recognition that some activities are unethical and dangerous to society. What we have today, all over the world, are crimes which have nothing to do with ethics or practicality, which are of no benefit to society, to hunting, nor to wildlife. They are the arbitrary moralism of bigots, and the proof is that they outlaw something which was not only legal for centuries, but actually a mandatory skill.

Ethics acrue on an individual basis. For someone who is unskilled to shoot at a deer at close range with a handgun is unethical, whereas for an Olympic pistol shooter to kill it with one shot at 100 yards is not.