Best caliber for mountain hunts?

[Hales Smut]

snipers and sniping are being referred to a lot on this thread , lets have a little look at that

a sniper carries a lot of equipment on top of his rifle , generally more than a hunter yet he still doesn't use a light rifle

a sniper works in all environments from urban to mountain yet he still doesn't use a light rifle

a sniper generally needs to make a first round hit at extended range (traditional sniping not urban target rich environment's) yet he still doesn't use a light rifle


so there must be some merit to a heavy rifle ? I have used my impossibly heavy 308 for hill stalking and my purpose built 260 lightweight hill rifle , I would rather carry the lighter rifle but push come to shove I feel more comfortable with the heavy 308 making a difficult shot.


I think you should carry the rifle and calibre 'YOU' are happy with ?

Most snipers are in the prime time of their live. Young trained soldiers, certainly in a better condition than myself. Probably in better condition than the average " 1 week a year stalker " Mostly he has a spotter to help him in the technical department. ( distance, wind , ..... ) For us, stalkers, a simple to use , practical , not to heavy rifle with an easy to use scope is the answer. At least in my opinion.
A flat shooting calibre will be more forgiving when distance judging is slighly off. I don't think there is a "best" calibre. Be it 25-06 , 270, 7x64, 7mm RM , 30-06, 308 all will kill the game with a reasonable placed quality bullet.

 

[tackb]

This thread is quite interesting. I like the idea of a mountain rifle. I’ve done a hunt for a Mouflon and I’ll be doing one for a chamois as well. I’m getting into this mountain hunting lark.

1 of the things that strikes me about “mountain” rifles is the view that they should be light. I’m really not convinced about this.

1. If you are shooting a relatively punchy calibre, often with the ’06 length cases or Rem / Win Mags, a light rifle might not be wonderful
2. If you’ve gone up hill and down dale after something, you may well be a little exerted when you have to make the shot. Something not too light to sit behind might not be a bad thing (We are not as fit as most soldiers when it comes to it so probably breathing hard)
3. Stock stability: if shooting on a rest or prone from a bipod I’d like a stiff stock that is impervious to weather (So probably laminate which isn’t light)

So, I think a relatively flat shooting calibre that holds energy well in a decent weight rifle is the right thing to go for.

If you are going to save weight, don’t take it out of the rifle which is the tool you need to make the shot of the lifetime, take the weight out of the rest of your kit and perhaps from around the middle of yourself

ATB,

Scrummy

that's what I did !

 

[shuggie]

that's what I did !

Have to agree way you two they are very few folks who could not lose a few pounds round the waist .All i would add is if you are shooting over 200yds its good practice to have a rangefinder as the best flat shooting rifle zeroed at 200yds will drop over 5inch at 300yds

 

[tackb]

Most snipers are in the prime time of their live. Young trained soldiers, certainly in a better condition than myself. Probably in better condition than the average " 1 week a year stalker " Mostly he has a spotter to help him in the technical department. ( distance, wind , ..... ) For us, stalkers, a simple to use , practical , not to heavy rifle with an easy to use scope is the answer. At least in my opinion.
A flat shooting calibre will be more forgiving when distance judging is slighly off. I don't think there is a "best" calibre. Be it 25-06 , 270, 7x64, 7mm RM , 30-06, 308 all will kill the game with a reasonable placed quality bullet.

the single most important thing for success at long range is a competent spotter.

 

[Muir]

How did a discussion about a mountain rifle turn into a discussion about long range shooting? They are not necessarily synonymous. My idea of a mountain rifle is a light weight rig I can carry all day at high altitude, in rough terrain, and make accurate shots from all positions when I need -including (and especially) standing. ~Muir

 

[tackb]

How did a discussion about a mountain rifle turn into a discussion about long range shooting? They are not necessarily synonymous. My idea of a mountain rifle is a light weight rig I can carry all day at high altitude, in rough terrain, and make accurate shots from all positions when I need -including (and especially) standing. ~Muir

you mean a discussion about calibre

 

[Hales Smut]

How did a discussion about a mountain rifle turn into a discussion about long range shooting? They are not necessarily synonymous. My idea of a mountain rifle is a light weight rig I can carry all day at high altitude, in rough terrain, and make accurate shots from all positions when I need -including (and especially) standing. ~Muir

Fully agree.

 

[Southern]

Any caliber who can produce an ethical kill, just get a rangefinder , calculate a range card using your balistics (a modern ballistic calculator is a good tool) and a scope who let you dial your correction .
If you don't want to get too complicated just pay atention to Shotgun and get a superb flat shooting .270 win or a 300 wm if you need more range and energy .

Because the original poster and some young fellow were talking about 400 yards and 600 yards, as these discussions so often do, all over the Internet. And all us older hunters are saying, that is just not realistic, not hunting - get it out of your mind.

 

[tackb]

Because the original poster and some young fellow were talking about 400 yards and 600 yards, as these discussions so often do, all over the Internet. And all us older hunters are saying, that is just not realistic, not hunting - get it out of your mind.

technically it is realistic with modern kit designed for the purpose and the skills to use it well

as to whether it's hunting or not , that is an entirely personal decision , by all means listen to the older hunters but make your own mind up about your own ability's.

 

[User00026]

depends depends depends..

What size quarry, what average distance, what 'type' of mountain! how steep, how flat, etc. Is it a scottish hill/mountain with rolling heather and a few crags, or a swiss mountaineering job! is it a nz mountain that's fully forested?

There's no such thing as a 'mountain rifle', there are rifles which have certain characteristics that IMHO make them better for mountains.

Firstly, let's take Scottish highland/hill out of the equation here, that's in 99% of instances not a 'mountain' (yes, someone will chip in with a picture of a rough mountain in the highlands where they stalk, but let's look at the norms). The reason I remove this category is because it should be under 'hill rifle', not 'mountain'.

so, a mountain rifle, in my book should exhibit some of the following features:
1. be suited to the largest game you are likely to hunt
2. be a calibre and rifle you shoot comfortably with in all positions without flinching
3. Assuming large bear is not on the menu, a 'reasonably' flat shooting calibre 'might' be an advantage for point and shoot to 300; however, zeroing at MPBR and limiting yourself to that, and/or having turrets and range finders for anything 'over' should make ballistic profile redundant.
4. Looking at the vast majority of 'mountain' game species, 7mm through to 30 cal are the most sensible options for 'all rounders'.
5. whilst 7mm RM is a great rifle, to get the most out of them you need 26"-30" barrels, therefore, I would write them off and go with a round which works admirably in 20" to 24" barrel length. I would therefore seriously consider 7x57, 7-08, 7x64, .270, .308
6. If you travel the worlds mountains and need ammo available locally, 7x57, .270 and .308 are suddenly becoming the favourites (although of course some places will readily stock the other calibres ammo).
7. Stock wise I would wish for a european hogback style or griffin and howe straight slant comb with same drop at comb and heel as hogsback, these make the best rifles imho for shooting sitting, off sticks, standing and sitting behind a boulder, etc. etc.
8. I would go with pistol grip that's not too steep for better and swifter handling, as well as a reasonably thin front end in either a curved tip or schnabel style
9. good wrap around checking in no smaller than 18LPI is a must for grip in rain and sweat.
10. a great canvas sling (wide) that can be adjusted and spun a turn anticlockwise for a quick fit around the left arm (assuming RH shooter)
11. decent QD mounts such as recknagel eramatic, eaw, smithson or clawmounts are a must
12. 2 leaf rear sight and a nice tall visible front sight bead such as a white insert partridge sight, a hood is not a bad idea if you risk slipping on rocks, and then a banded sight is best for sturdiness. same with sling loop, banded.
13. sigts regulated at 75 and 150 yds, personally don't know anyone taking game at 300 with iron sights! that's just for show to have on your rifle...keep it real.
14. a floorplate...no magazines! seriously, magazines that can fall out on a day(s) trek into the mountains,, no no no
15. trigger - KISS IT!! keep it simple, nothing fancy, something sturdy that breaks right for you, nothing that fails with a bump or knock or a bit of water/humidity or dust. something like Dressels or Alaska Arms please.
16. Action..ok, I'm biased, Mauser 98! works works works, and can be stripped (bolt) and cleaned in the field in minutes. nothing more to be said.
17. barrel profile - for gods sake, keep it light!
18. bipod - oh dear, use the land and your daysack
19. anything else,,,I'll be back when I recall

something not entirely far from this except I would opt for 2 leaf rear sight and a floorplate with a trigger guard based lever, maybe a 3-9x36 scope, that said, you can't beat a zeiss diatal c 4x32!

 

[scrumbag]

I quite like the above!

 

[Southern]

That's a good list of features. The Sako Bavarian I handled yesterday in .270 had all that. Just drop on a light weight, sharp scope and go.
For that matter, if you are going to limit your range to 250 yards, it is hard to improve on an old Sako fullstock or Mannlicher Model M Stutzen.

I should add that the Sako Bavarian in 7mm RM or .300 WM is the same size as the .270 and 7x64, only about 7.5 lbs at most, and nicely balanced, mounts and points like a bird gun, unlike most magnums. It has the same iron sights I am putting on my project rifle. I hope the 7x64 I am building turns out to be as nice in the hands.

 

[User00026]

That's a good list of features. The Sako Bavarian I handled yesterday in .270 had all that. Just drop on a light weight, sharp scope and go.
For that matter, if you are going to limit your range to 250 yards, it is hard to improve on an old Sako fullstock or Mannlicher Model M Stutzen.

good point, should have added .270 to the list! will do

 

[Cumbrian 1]

I use a 7x64, originally I use to use a CZ as I love mauser actions, however I have recently had a custom rifle built with a 26" barrel, carbon fibre stock and the new 3-20 schmidt pm2 scope. The rifle doesn't weigh a lot but I can hit a 4" plate offhand at 100m and dial it out for longer shots. I have shot most of the chamois sub species and I am heading to the Caucasus mountains in June for chamois and tur and this rifle will definitely be going along. No chance of stalking close in those mountains the terrain dictates the shot.

 

[scrumbag]

I use a 7x64, originally I use to use a CZ as I love mauser actions, however I have recently had a custom rifle built with a 26" barrel, carbon fibre stock and the new 3-20 schmidt pm2 scope. The rifle doesn't weigh a lot but I can hit a 4" plate offhand at 100m and dial it out for longer shots. I have shot most of the chamois sub species and I am heading to the Caucasus mountains in June for chamois and tur and this rifle will definitely be going along. No chance of stalking close in those mountains the terrain dictates the shot.

Now that sounds a great hunt! Enjoy sir!

 

[DAC]

Because the original poster and some young fellow were talking about 400 yards and 600 yards, as these discussions so often do, all over the Internet. And all us older hunters are saying, that is just not realistic, not hunting - get it out of your mind.

No matter the used tools (rifle, bow,spear net or trap) or the distance is just hunting, at the end a soul is lost and maybe someone bag some venison or get a nice trophy.
Now regarding just about the this small detail, the distance, for some of us 200 meters cam be long range, for others is just short range, is all about perception , skills and decision , I for example I can hit 30 cm diameter targets consistently up to 650 m (some time when wind is not gusting too much up to 850 m) but until now I dare to shot a living criter only at 300 meters .
Between CAN and DO is something called ethic and common sense , if you can shot in kill zone of a roe without a doubt at 800 go for it, get the right kit and take the shoot, if someone is confortable at 200 and try to hit a living criter at 400 without knowing what is doing, well in this case is not hunting anymore, in my eyes this person is just an brainless idiot with a loaded gun !
As a rule I alway try to get as close is possible to the game, if I get anywhere inside 300 meters and I can take a safe and sure shot I just take the shot, until now the closest game I hunted was a young roe buck at 6-7 meters and longest shot was on a doe at 307 meters, both less then 10 seconds kill.

Old or young just be hunters and be safe.

 

[Southern]

All too true, DAC, about the ethics, but also about the enjoyment and challenge of stalking closer, and seeing the game better, and the practicality. No matter about the shooting skills, because beyond 225 yards, you start to having to hold over. Beyond 300 yards, range estimation to within 15 yards becomes vital, and the wind and thermal currents will make for terrible misses by even the best shot. Lastly, the time for a bullet to travel 300 yards is enough for the animal to move just as you let it go, and make the strike a foot behind your aiming point.

Even as little as I get to practice, when I do, I still plink by shooting sticks, checkers, and bottle caps offhand at 100 yards, and can hit a high percentage of them with iron sights. A clay pigeon at 250 yards on a calm day, offhand, is a still a 99% shot for me. I have shot foxes and coyotes with iron sights at 400 yards, and deer and boar at 300 with a scope, when conditions were right and I could sit or lean on a tree. But I would not take a 300 yard shot with wind or any chance of the game taking a step, as is the norm in the mountains. Several of my hunting friends were USMC or Army combat snipers, and are the same way... the fun is in stalking and picking the right ambush point, so every shot is a sure thing. Testing one's shooting skill is for the range.

 

[baguio]

the single most important thing for success at long range is a competent spotter.

So being able to shoot straight isn't the most important thing then? Silly me eh!

 

[interceptor]

Thanks for replies Darren and shuggie
As for biathlon sling - i bought it from Norman Clark Gunsmiths at the west country game fair!! ( Verovellini is the maker )
As for mountain hunting - personal fitness is the key
All the best,
Ray.

 

[shuggie]

Thanks for replies Darren and shuggie
As for biathlon sling - i bought it from Norman Clark Gunsmiths at the west country game fair!! ( Verovellini is the maker )
As for mountain hunting - personal fitness is the key
All the best,
Ray.

Thanks Ray Darren speaks highly of you ,be nice if our paths cross one day take care mare Shuggie