Best caliber for mountain hunts?

[provarmint]

Accuracy has nothing to do with losing sight picture on firing
If the man is shooting at 4-600yds anyway he has plenty of time to see what is happening (I personally can't think of a situation where getting within 300yds is out of the question but thats just my take on it!)

if you are developing a flinch then your rifle doesn't fit you or your technique is poor

Too many people watching "American Sniper" and starting off thinking the best option for them is a crossed arms - no thumb hold.
That's fine on a 50lb sniper rifle on a flat platform with a rear sand bag with hours of condition monitoring.....

that ain't hunting!

Getting the bullet in the right place has nothing to do with the calibre/cartridge combo
If you can put a 6.5mm bullet in a 4" at 400-600yds in a 15-20 mph wind, across a valley with a rising current you can probably do it with a 7.62 or any other calibre bullet!!

Hunting isn't target shooting and the TE/TV and bullet construction discussion should come first.

Its a fundamentally stupid question along the lines of "is the .243 too small?"
what are we hunting in these mountains?
Black Bear or Chamois? Thar or Mouflon?
Ranges expected?

But whether you choose a super high BC bullet from a sexy new cartridge with the latest mono metal construction.....the bullet's performance is not the factor that will decide if that animal dies quickly or not at "mountain" ranges.

My experience of people flinching is that they loose sight picture before releasing the round, anticipating what's to come. Mostly that happens with large calibres in a light package, which is why I mentioned it. At the end of the day it's what suits you, never watched 'American Sniper ' was it a good film?

 

[Canadian1]

It is more accurate its built to my specification ,faster rifle barrel twist to let you shoot heavier bullets way a better bc means i can stretch the range a bit,for me its a extra tool at your disposal

Those 'advantages' are not inherent characteristics of a heavy rifle.

 

[shuggie]

Those 'advantages' are not inherent characteristics of a heavy rifle.

I should have said a custom heavy rifle

 

[Canadian1]

I should have said a custom heavy rifle

Doesn't change anything.

I understand the benefits of a heavy barrel for target or varmint shooting where multiple consecutive shots are taken, but this is not pertinent to a hunting rifle.

 

[shuggie]

Doesn't change anything.

I understand the benefits of a heavy barrel for target or varmint shooting where multiple consecutive shots are taken, but this is not pertinent to a hunting rifle.

In your eyes

 

[Canadian1]

In your eyes

Huh?

Barrel twist, accuracy and bullet choice have nothing to do with rifle weight. I fail to see the correlation...

This is not a subjective remark.

 

[shuggie]

To shoot at longer ranges and get good results you need accuracy, rifle twist to stabilise heavy bullets with a high bc , if you use a big 30cal its better heavy way a sound moderator to reduce recoil and stop flinching .I have applied this method for over 20yrs

 

[interceptor]

You have to define "Mountain Hunting" and the shots you will take first. My guess is that you are talking about 400 to 600 yard Chamois or similar, otherwise It would be little different to shooting over here.

I have just bought a rifle for just that job, Chamois in the Alps this Autumn. I will also be using it as my hill rifle, so it's not just a one trick pony.

I tend to look at what I want from a bullet rather than the calibre first. If my max distance is 600 yards (not saying it's right, just what happens in the mountains of Europe and especially NZ) you are going to need something that is carrying over 1000ftlb of energy as a minimum at that distance and expands reliably at the bullets TV - whatever that may be.

At that distance trajectory and windage are very much a factor, so I would be looking for a high BC as well, ideally over .500, preferably more. If I was feeling really brave I might suggest we are in Berger and AMax territory at that distance, a combination of high BC and reliable expansion at lower velocities. You probably wouldn't want to take a 100 yard shot with one though, so I have not used them.

In terms of high BC bullets you are probably looking at 6.5 and 7mm calibres to get the ideal.

My 6.5*47 Lapua with a 140 grain Nosler BT with a MV of 2750 fps only has 980ftlb of energy at 600 yards, speed is about 1750 fps which is getting a bit marginal for expansion and wind drift is 57 inches in a 20 mph wind.

A 270 with a 150 grain Nosler BT with a MV of 2850fps has 1100 ftlb at 600 yards, speed is just over 1800 fps which is a tad low but should initiate expansion, and drift in the same 20 mph wind is about 56 inches.

280AI (I have one coming just for this job) with a 162 grain SST with a MV of 2950fps has just over 1400ftlb, is travelling at 2000 fps and has drift of 47 inches. If you did go with the AMAX you would increase TV and energy and reduce drift to just 40 inches.

If you go up to 30 cal and start launching bullets with that sort of BC fast enough to match the performance of the 7mm you end up being over gunned IMHO and suffer significant recoil, which I don't enjoy very much. Hence my personal preference for the 280AI.

The 280 Ackley is what i am using now!!!

I use biathlon type sling which is great when stalking and climbing up steep slopes when stalking - hands free for glassing when stalking too!!
My favourite bullet to go is the 162 A-max running @3025fps / makes sence really as i had the barrel chambered for Nosler custom brass and the 162 A-max!!!
Spoke to Darren and sure like the sound of shuggies BOO BOO , Had a chat about this caliber ( 7mm and 30 ) and its merits with Dave Ryan a few years ago!!
All the best....

 

[provarmint]

Hi Ray, that. 280 improved sure does work.

 

[Canadian1]

To shoot at longer ranges and get good results you need accuracy, rifle twist to stabilise heavy bullets with a high bc , if you use a big 30cal its better heavy way a sound moderator to reduce recoil and stop flinching .I have applied this method for over 20yrs

Let me spell it out...

You said "It is more accurate its built to my specification ,faster rifle barrel twist to let you shoot heavier bullets way a better bc means i can stretch the range a bit,for me its a extra tool at your disposal"

And I replied that those are not characteristics inherent in a heavy gun. My 6.5x55 has a 1:8 twist and will stabilize 160 grain projectiles and maintain sub-moa accuracy all in a 6.7 lbs rifle. For shots under 400 yards (ethical maximum on game, IMO), this gun will group better than I can shoot.

It is my opinion that long range "target" rifles have no business in the hunting fields unless you are hunting at normal ranges and using proper bullets. I know some will disagree, but this is my opinion. This ultra long-range hunting crap has got to stop before the anti community begins using it against us. It is not hunting.

Anyone who wants to lug around a 20 pound rifle can have at er'.

 

[provarmint]

Arguing amongst ourselves is ammunition for the uneducated.

 

[shuggie]

The 280 Ackley is what i am using now!!!

I use biathlon type sling which is great when stalking and climbing up steep slopes when stalking - hands free for glassing when stalking too!!
My favourite bullet to go is the 162 A-max running @3025fps / makes sence really as i had the barrel chambered for Nosler custom brass and the 162 A-max!!!
Spoke to Darren and sure like the sound of shuggies BOO BOO , Had a chat about this caliber ( 7mm and 30 ) and its merits with Dave Ryan a few years ago!!
All the best....

Nice rifle can i ask where you got the biathlon type sling mate i remember shooting against Dave at altcar in my 2nd comp using a loaned rifle 22.250 using 70vlds from Peter Jackson

 

[Southern]

For a long time, the marketing guys and some custom gun makers have pushed or pursued ultralight rifles. Since the attention given to snipers since the war in Iraq, there has been, at the other end of the spectrum, a lot of people wanting to build some look-aliike, without understanding why an M40 is built the way it is, and why it is heavy, among other things.

Tactical shooters set up and map our "range cards" for every field they are covering. And not all of it is at long range.

Hunting in the mountains, as any hunting where you are walking and stalking, often means you have to make a shot without being able to get your feet planted much less lie down and take a rest, without having time to use a range finder, much less twist any turrets. So it is smart to limit your shots to a range you can make straight up, with a dead hold, from that position. a 7 to 8.5 lb rifle is just a whole lot more ideal for that.

 

[Muir]

For a long time, the marketing guys and some custom gun makers have pushed or pursued ultralight rifles. Since the attention given to snipers since the war in Iraq, there has been, at the other end of the spectrum, a lot of people wanting to build some look-aliike, without understanding why an M40 is built the way it is, and why it is heavy, among other things.

Tactical shooters set up and map our "range cards" for every field they are covering. And not all of it is at long range.

Hunting in the mountains, as any hunting where you are walking and stalking, often means you have to make a shot without being able to get your feet planted much less lie down and take a rest, without having time to use a range finder, much less twist any turrets. So it is smart to limit your shots to a range you can make straight up, with a dead hold, from that position. a 7 to 8.5 lb rifle is just a whole lot more ideal for that.

Agreed.~Muir

 

[tackb]

snipers and sniping are being referred to a lot on this thread , lets have a little look at that

a sniper carries a lot of equipment on top of his rifle , generally more than a hunter yet he still doesn't use a light rifle

a sniper works in all environments from urban to mountain yet he still doesn't use a light rifle

a sniper generally needs to make a first round hit at extended range (traditional sniping not urban target rich environment's) yet he still doesn't use a light rifle


so there must be some merit to a heavy rifle ? I have used my impossibly heavy 308 for hill stalking and my purpose built 260 lightweight hill rifle , I would rather carry the lighter rifle but push come to shove I feel more comfortable with the heavy 308 making a difficult shot.


I think you should carry the rifle and calibre 'YOU' are happy with ?

 

[JabaliHunter]

My suggestions for the ranges and types of animal typically classes as mountain game would be something in the 6.5mm to 7mm range, so something like

6.5mm pushing 140gr bullets
.270in pushing 150gr bullets
7mm pushing 162-168gr bullets.

Any of those pushed to say 2800+fps should be manageable in a good mountain rifle without too much weight or recoil and sensible for reaching out past 300m if necessary.

In my opinion the heavy .300 and .338 etc. sniper rifles come into their own when a heavy (200-300gr) high bc bullet needs to reach out (way!) past 600m and still be carrying a lot of energy at those ranges.

But it's just an opinion!

 

[bewsher500]

snipers and sniping are being referred to a lot on this thread , lets have a little look at that

a sniper carries a lot of equipment on top of his rifle , generally more than a hunter yet he still doesn't use a light rifle

a sniper works in all environments from urban to mountain yet he still doesn't use a light rifle

a sniper generally needs to make a first round hit at extended range (traditional sniping not urban target rich environment's) yet he still doesn't use a light rifle

True
but then they are more often than not using a calibre/cartridge that is launching 300-750gr out of a 29" barrel!!
not sub 200gr
slight step up in recoil

he also has someone to spot for him, carry half his gear, make his tea
They will shoot from a stable position that they have often occupied for some hours if not days


you should be comparing the light infantry weapons not platform sniper weapons

as for recoil, I took this video for my own personal education to see what it looked like to chuck a .208gr .30cal bullet at 2850fps out of a 300WM
total weight - 4.4kg - 9.75lb

won't carry any more than that, don't need to, no impact on accuracy and I have happily chucked 38 rounds down range consecutively without "recoil fatigue"
(and No! I am only resting my hand on the scope and no using like a handle!)

 

[tackb]

True
but then they are more often than not using a calibre/cartridge that is launching 300-750gr out of a 29" barrel!!
not sub 200gr
slight step up in recoil

he also has someone to spot for him, carry half his gear, make his tea
They will shoot from a stable position that they have often occupied for some hours if not days


you should be comparing the light infantry weapons not platform sniper weapons

as for recoil, I took this video for my own personal education to see what it looked like to chuck a .208gr .30cal bullet at 2850fps out of a 300WM
total weight - 4.4kg - 9.75lb

won't carry any more than that, don't need to, no impact on accuracy and I have happily chucked 38 rounds down range consecutively without "recoil fatigue"
(and No! I am only resting my hand on the scope and no using like a handle!)

true , they have moved over to 338 as the general sniper round now but that's only really recently , the 308 was it for many many years.

I'm not comparing anything I'm just bringing a little objectivity to those who keep bringing up snipers and sniping.

I launch the same 208 amax out of my 300rum at 3250fps so I'm well aware of the recoil , it's manageable but my rifle is much heavier than yours and not one I'd use for hill stalking although I'd hazard I could manage it's weight (at the moment!) but it's not required , simple !

you should check out the ballistics of the 260rem with the 140 amax compared to your 300wm , it makes very interesting reading !

 

[Paul at Fechan]

lot of guys on here have never been up mountains for sure! any flat magnum in a lightweight config where longer range work is happening, you'd probably be off your rucksack so forget the bipod. Species and calibre match up is important but not definitive. Fatigue can ruin your chances of getting a shot through poor focus, missed opportunity and worse of all careless footing leading to falls and injury before you even find the game.

 

[scrumbag]

This thread is quite interesting. I like the idea of a mountain rifle. I’ve done a hunt for a Mouflon and I’ll be doing one for a chamois as well. I’m getting into this mountain hunting lark.

1 of the things that strikes me about “mountain” rifles is the view that they should be light. I’m really not convinced about this.

1. If you are shooting a relatively punchy calibre, often with the ’06 length cases or Rem / Win Mags, a light rifle might not be wonderful
2. If you’ve gone up hill and down dale after something, you may well be a little exerted when you have to make the shot. Something not too light to sit behind might not be a bad thing (We are not as fit as most soldiers when it comes to it so probably breathing hard)
3. Stock stability: if shooting on a rest or prone from a bipod I’d like a stiff stock that is impervious to weather (So probably laminate which isn’t light)

So, I think a relatively flat shooting calibre that holds energy well in a decent weight rifle is the right thing to go for.

If you are going to save weight, don’t take it out of the rifle which is the tool you need to make the shot of the lifetime, take the weight out of the rest of your kit and perhaps from around the middle of yourself

ATB,

Scrummy