16 year old and firearms.

[gixer1]

We are in the process of acquiring an FAC for my son (16 years old)

And I’m a little confused as to the firearms guidelines.

My son competes and wants to have his own firearms which obviously he cannot purchase, but can acquire through me (as a cert holder)

The part that confuses me is if he wants his own guns which will be the same action, chambering etc as mine, do I need to double up on my authority to purchase and if so is “passing them to a 16 year old cert holder” good reason?

At the moment that will add 6 firearms to my cert that I don’t intend to use.

Guidance states -

7.33 When a parent or other adult wishes to purchase a firearm to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies for presentation to a young person between the ages of fourteen and under eighteen, both the adult and the young person must be in possession of certificates, or other lawful authority (for example, as would be given to a member of a cadet corps). The adult will need the authority to enable them to purchase, and the young person to enable them to acquire and possess the firearms and ammunition.

 

[VSS]

My firearms dept very kindly put slots on my ticket FOC to match what my daughter had applied for. Might be worth a try?
(In the event, her first two rifles were gifted to her by another member of this site, but both were added to my FAC as well as hers, to facilitate things like transport, security and ammo purchases).

 

[MrD]

Maybe worth a chat with your FEO or Licensing Dept.?

 

[WalkedUp]

Watching this with interest. A few years off for me yet. I have three sons within four years of each other… so assuming just 3x rifles each plus mods, plus my 10 and their mods that will total 38 entries on my FAC…. What a mad, mad system we enjoy.

 

[25 Sharps]

Watching this with interest. A few years off for me yet. I have three sons within four years of each other… so assuming just 3x rifles each plus mods, plus my 10 and their mods that will total 38 entries on my FAC…. What a mad, mad system we enjoy.

Christ, you’ll be catching me up soon . And that’s before I start looking for my boy who’s 14 in 2.5 years, think I’m safe with my daughter though. She’ll be vegetarian and anti Daddy’s hobby by the time she’s old enough!

 

[Buchan]

I had to buy a .222 for my son at 14 before he was allowed shared access to my 6.5 and .308. I couldn't understand the logic, rolled with it and now have a lovely Tikka 222 to play with. He still has shared access, I transfer ammunition to him when he uses them to show the good use, although he is now loading his own.

 

[gixer1]

Maybe worth a chat with your FEO or Licensing Dept.?

Yeah, that’s the plan when they come for the interview - it won’t change much either way but I was just curious what others experiences were.

 

[M@tt]

He can go with you for you to purchase the firearm, and then you actually buy/pay for it, but for him.
You effectively do not take possession of it and he doesn't buy it.

I think this is to stop the youngsters saving up their pocket money and buying a rifle without the knowledge of their parents.
This way, even if you don't have an FAC you'll know he has acquired a rifle.
You'll know he has an FAC as the FEO will have had a chat with you and him during the application process, just to make sure you also understand the implications of him owning firearms.

 

[gixer1]

He can go with you for you to purchase the firearm, and then you actually buy/pay for it, but for him.
You effectively do not take possession of it and he doesn't buy it.

I think this is to stop the youngsters saving up their pocket money and buying a rifle without the knowledge of their parents.
This way, even if you don't have an FAC you'll know he has acquired a rifle.
You'll know he has an FAC as the FEO will have had a chat with you and him during the application process, just to make sure you also understand the implications of him owning firearms.

The only issue there is one of wording, on my cert it states “firearms authorised to be purchased or acquired”…..if I do not have the firearms he is looking to acquire listed on my cert how can I purchase them?

Obviously I will discuss this with the FEO however it’s the wording that could be in trouble, as a VAT receipt will be made out to me showing I purchased yet I potentially have no authority to purchase.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[M@tt]

I think he is acquiring it, you are just paying for it (as always, if anything like my kids).

 

[FoxAndDeer]

I'm not sure on the practicalities of your child's competing, but when I acquired my target rifle (at 16) my dad wasn't involved at all.

I was gifted it by a friendly member from a local club, and I kept ammunition at the rifle club where I trained, taking it with me for competitions etc.

I travelled plenty of times with my mum / other shooters to competitions etc. I'm not sure if that works with current rules.

Worth baring in mind. Definitely easier to get them on your ticket to make things easier, just making the point that target shooting / clubs also help with this kind of thing.

 

[VSS]

I think he is acquiring it, you are just paying for it (as always, if anything like my kids).

Trouble is, it needs to be stated on the transfer whether it was sold, gifted, lent, etc.
The RFD is hardly going to notify that he has just gifted someone a firearm.

It is a slightly convoluted system. I can going with my daughter, before she was 18, to buy ammo for her. In the shop, she gave me the money and I handed it to the seller. Then, while he was filling out my FAC, I was busy filling out hers!

But, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, our local firearms dept was very accommodating about giving me authority for her rifles. Effectively, I got 6 slots on my ticket FOC (3×rifles and 3×moderators).

 

[M@tt]

It's not an ideal system.
But the RFD can 'sell' it (doesn't matter who pays as long as it's not the fac holder in this case) and write the 16yr old's FAC details in his register and 'given' the firearm on the FAC.

 

[gixer1]

Trouble is, it needs to be stated on the transfer whether it was sold, gifted, lent, etc.
The RFD is hardly going to notify that he has just gifted someone a firearm.

It is a slightly convoluted system. I can going with my daughter, before she was 18, to buy ammo for her. In the shop, she gave me the money and I handed it to the seller. Then, while he was filling out my FAC, I was busy filling out hers!

But, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, our local firearms dept was very accommodating about giving me authority for her rifles. Effectively, I got 6 slots on my ticket FOC (3×rifles and 3×moderators).

That is a very good point VSS - I wonder if I’ll be subject to the new variation charges to add said 6 firearms to my ticket…

 

[gixer1]

Ok folks, had a telephone discussion with the FEO dealing with mini-gixer’s FAC/SGC application, I asked him about the law regarding mini-gixer accessing the firearms, and if he was able to use said firearms if I was not here (for example attending a club competition with his own firearm)

The below is the response I got, via e-mail after the call which is helpful, although on the purchasing side I think the legislation is flawed, it would’ve been better that there had to be a consenting adult with the junior FAC at the time of purchase.

My son has worked and saved hard to buy his own competition rifles and it’s a bit of a farce that he has to hand the money to me, for me to buy said rifle, to then hand it to him as a gift….it also means in the case of one of the rifles I need to send my FAC down south to get the rifle….not very efficient!

Hi GIXER1,

Home Office Firearms Licensing guidelines seems to cover your queries to a point;

7.33 When a parent or other adult wishes to purchase a firearm to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies for presentation to a young person between the ages of fourteen and under eighteen, both the adult and the young person must be in possession of certificates, or other lawful authority (for example, as would be given to a member of a cadet corps). The adult will need the authority to enable them to purchase, and the young person to enable them to acquire and possess the firearms and ammunition. The same principle would apply to a shot gun to which section 2 of the 1968 Act applies for presentation to a young person between the ages of fifteen and eighteen. In some cases the parent or other adult may wish the firearm to appear on both certificates for reasons of joint storage. However, the supervisor of a young person over the age of fourteen need not be a certificate holder.

As far as security goes, you would need a two lock gun cabinet, one key held by MINI-GIXER and the other being a responsible adult (could be you or your wife). Whenever MINI-GIXER needs to access a firearm he needs to be accompanied by a responsible adult at all times and remove the item(s) himself and cannot be alone. Likewise, the responsible adult would need to be present when firearms etc are returned. You can’t have a digital access for a gun cabinet unless the responsible adult is a certificate holder and shares the contents.

With regards to the acquisition of firearms etc, it appears that you would need to make application to vary your certificate in order to acquire the firearms for MINI-GIXER as described above and that you would then gift to him and notify us accordingly (if you are making application simply to acquire for MINI-GIXER and not yourself, we would simply remove this authority from your licence and show MIN-GIXER as the only person in possession of this weapon).


Hope this helps

 

[Selous]

He can go with you for you to purchase the firearm, and then you actually buy/pay for it, but for him.
You effectively do not take possession of it and he doesn't buy it.

I think this is to stop the youngsters saving up their pocket money and buying a rifle without the knowledge of their parents.
This way, even if you don't have an FAC you'll know he has acquired a rifle.
You'll know he has an FAC as the FEO will have had a chat with you and him during the application process, just to make sure you also understand the implications of him owning firearms.

I’m afraid this is incorrect. The RFD cannot transfer directly to a minor, even as a gift. The transaction has to go onto the certificate of an adult and the rifle is then gifted to the minor. It doesn’t make sense but that’s how it works.

 

[gixer1]

I’m afraid this is incorrect. The RFD cannot transfer directly to a minor, even as a gift. The transaction has to go onto the certificate of an adult and the rifle is then gifted to the minor. It doesn’t make sense but that’s how it works.

This is my complaint Selous, it just seems nonsensical…but it’s the way it is it seems.

I find even the FEO’s are struggling to know what is what.

 

[Selous]

This is my complaint Selous, it just seems nonsensical…but it’s the way it is it seems.

I find even the FEO’s are struggling to know what is what.

I totally agree but that’s the way it seems to be

 

[M@tt]

I’m afraid this is incorrect. The RFD cannot transfer directly to a minor, even as a gift. The transaction has to go onto the certificate of an adult and the rifle is then gifted to the minor. It doesn’t make sense but that’s how it works.

Looking at the email reply above, it would seem you're right.

I can't remember how we did it when my kids were first FAC/SGC holders. I'm sure we didn't have this issue.
As you say, seems daft and increases the FLD's workload.

 

[Bowland blades]

My youngest has had an FAC from 13 or 14 year old