17hmr or .17 hornet

[njc110381]

Would you use a .50BMG where you would usually use a .22lr? Or shoot pigeons inside a barn with a .22lr instead of a 12ftlb air rifle?
Even Bisley (its a very famous series of ranges used by the military and civilians), have a small bore range that limits the calibre.
If you can not work out that certain back stops will be safe for certain calibres and not for others, maybe you should find another hobby.

I tend to consider bullet construction over cartridge and bore size when thinking about safety. There are places I'm more comfortable sending a 75Gr Sierra Varminter out of my .25-06 at 3700fps than I am sending a 40gr out of my .22lr at 1050fps. Why? Because the .25-06 bullet will in 99% of cases break up, the 40gr .22lr most certainly won't!

Stick a 500ml coke bottle on a tree stump, place a cardboard box from your local white goods retailer a couple of meters behind it, and shoot it. See what results you get with the bullets you use. It's quite interesting. A powerful cartridge with a light frangible bullet is the best option I've encountered - velocity is king. That's why I always praise overkill when foxing. I like centrefire .17's, .22-250, .243, and recently .25-06. There's no substitute for a backstop but having a bullet that near enough vanishes into thin air when it hits something is a real bonus. The faster you can send it, the safer it seems to be.

 

[Overlay]

That’s not vermin! That’s not .17 hornet and certainly not HMR. Get a .223

Or mebbe a 204 or. 222 if you want to get it right first time.

 

[25 Sharps]

Or mebbe a 204 or. 222 if you want to get it right first time.

Horses for courses.

I’ll take your .222 and .204 and raise you .223 Ackley Improved!!

They’ll all do it, 17 hornet won’t and definitely shouldn’t!!

 

[Bowland blades]

I tend to consider bullet construction over cartridge and bore size when thinking about safety. There are places I'm more comfortable sending a 75Gr Sierra Varminter out of my .25-06 at 3700fps than I am sending a 40gr out of my .22lr at 1050fps. Why? Because the .25-06 bullet will in 99% of cases break up, the 40gr .22lr most certainly won't!

Stick a 500ml coke bottle on a tree stump, place a cardboard box from your local white goods retailer a couple of meters behind it, and shoot it. See what results you get with the bullets you use. It's quite interesting. A powerful cartridge with a light frangible bullet is the best option I've encountered - velocity is king. That's why I always praise overkill when foxing. I like centrefire .17's, .22-250, .243, and recently .25-06. There's no substitute for a backstop but having a bullet that near enough vanishes into thin air when it hits something is a real bonus. The faster you can send it, the safer it seems to be.

Impacts into a water bottle regards angle and medium that is hit , makes your argument . Ultimately though the reason is not a consideration over energy for certifying ranges or taking shots in the field is you can never be sure what the bullet will actually strike and what angles are involved to influence things .
22 rf some say is the most dangerous but its simply untrue . Many just assume the RF so bad because they hear the Zing of the ricochet - they never hear with the ricochet from CF because its very likely traveling faster than the speed of sound .
"seems" is not the same as "is" in this case

 

[25 Sharps]

I tend to consider bullet construction over cartridge and bore size when thinking about safety. There are places I'm more comfortable sending a 75Gr Sierra Varminter out of my .25-06 at 3700fps than I am sending a 40gr out of my .22lr at 1050fps. Why? Because the .25-06 bullet will in 99% of cases break up, the 40gr .22lr most certainly won't!

Stick a 500ml coke bottle on a tree stump, place a cardboard box from your local white goods retailer a couple of meters behind it, and shoot it. See what results you get with the bullets you use. It's quite interesting. A powerful cartridge with a light frangible bullet is the best option I've encountered - velocity is king. That's why I always praise overkill when foxing. I like centrefire .17's, .22-250, .243, and recently .25-06. There's no substitute for a backstop but having a bullet that near enough vanishes into thin air when it hits something is a real bonus. The faster you can send it, the safer it seems to be.

Agree on velocity but with some bullets you need a lot.

Those sierra varminters are beautifully accurate out of my 25-45 but I stopped using them in the field. I was finding they were pencilling through foxes and more muscly animals with little to no expansion resulting in runners, certainly not what you want when you absolutely cannot afford to be leaving dead animals around. Had a Ricochet after a pass through on one animal and that was with a steep earth bank behind it!!

So in my 25 at 3150 fps they were not expanding at all but out of your 25 at 3700 they were expanding emphatically by the sound of things.

 

[25 Sharps]

Impacts into a water bottle regards angle and medium that is hit , makes your argument . Ultimately though the reason is not a consideration over energy for certifying ranges or taking shots in the field is you can never be sure what the bullet will actually strike and what angles are involved to influence things .
22 rf some say is the most dangerous but its simply untrue . Many just assume the RF so bad because they hear the Zing of the ricochet - they never hear with the ricochet from CF because its very likely traveling faster than the speed of sound .
"seems" is not the same as "is" in this case

Again, you are saying supersonic things are silent, they are not!!

That’s why you can’t silence a supersonic round!! So if they are still supersonic after the ricochet you’d still get a sonic crack!

 

[Overlay]

Horses for courses.

I’ll take your .222 and .204 and raise you .223 Ackley Improved!!

They’ll all do it, 17 hornet won’t and definitely shouldn’t!!

Interesting caliber - Never seen, handled or fired a 223 Ackley, how is it compared to a bulk standard 223 rifle and ammunition on accuracy and FPS. does it behave on non toxic or factory if available to buy, do you have to have the Ackley bit on your ticket as well
I only use factory ammunition now due to HSE and copper requirements from some customers or land permissions

prior to the 222 I had a 223 in browning guise - it was a pile of do dah which prompted me to change to the deuce
( many years ago now ) and since also recently included the 204 both have proved excellent foxing calibres, I use the 222 for muntjac and clearing Canada geese as well, for accuracy using factory loads both are are excellent

 

[njc110381]

Agree on velocity but with some bullets you need a lot.

Those sierra varminters are beautifully accurate out of my 25-45 but I stopped using them in the field. I was finding they were pencilling through foxes and more muscly animals with little to no expansion resulting in runners, certainly not what you want when you absolutely cannot afford to be leaving dead animals around. Had a Ricochet after a pass through on one animal and that was with a steep earth bank behind it!!

So in my 25 at 3150 fps they were not expanding at all but out of your 25 at 3700 they were expanding emphatically by the sound of things.

Interesting. I guess that 500fps really changes things. Good to know though - I'm careful on longer shots for exactly that reason, but to have it confirmed is useful.

Impacts into a water bottle regards angle and medium that is hit , makes your argument . Ultimately though the reason is not a consideration over energy for certifying ranges or taking shots in the field is you can never be sure what the bullet will actually strike and what angles are involved to influence things .
22 rf some say is the most dangerous but its simply untrue . Many just assume the RF so bad because they hear the Zing of the ricochet - they never hear with the ricochet from CF because its very likely traveling faster than the speed of sound .
"seems" is not the same as "is" in this case

The faster a bullet flies, the quieter it is? That's news to me. I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying?

 

[Overlay]

Horses for courses.

I’ll take your .222 and .204 and raise you .223 Ackley Improved!!

They’ll all do it, 17 hornet won’t and definitely shouldn’t!!

Agree on the 17 hornet, it’s a cracking caliber and the accurate long range is phenomenal, I got one and pretty quick it proved it wasn’t a fox round despite good shot placement, based on a series of runners despite the speed and ammo changes, I then got the 204 as I’ve already got the 22 hornet, they’ve all got their workable ranges 22 hornet, 204 and 222 I use them all to good effect, been out on the lambing fields past 2-3 weeks and the 204 has done extremely well, I love the 17h as a caliber and it’s brilliant for long range rabbits but for me it’s not a foxing round.

 

[25 Sharps]

Interesting caliber - Never seen, handled or fired a 223 Ackley, how is it compared to a bulk standard 223 rifle and ammunition on accuracy and FPS. does it behave on non toxic or factory if available to buy, do you have to have the Ackley bit on your ticket as well
I only use factory ammunition now due to HSE and copper requirements from some customers or land permissions

prior to the 222 I had a 223 in browning guise - it was a pile of do dah which prompted me to change to the deuce
( many years ago now ) and since also recently included the 204 both have proved excellent foxing calibres, I use the 222 for muntjac and clearing Canada geese as well, for accuracy using factory loads both are are excellent

I have a tikka 590 semi custom in .223 AI, used to belong to @sirslotsalot and a friend of his had it put together. It’s a quirky one at 1:14 but Alan told me his friend wanted something that would shoot light bullets well out to 350-400 yards. Which it does very well!!

An ackley chamber will fire factory/standard .223 perfectly well (that’s how you form the case) including copper subject to twist. Once formed you have the benefits of reloading with more powder capacity, so more velocity, better head spacing and virtually no case stretch. I don’t think I’ve been needed to trim a case in 4 or 5 years of owning the rifle and 6-700 rounds.

It will push a 50 gr to 3600 fps, 40 to 3800, 35 to 4075. I have some 30 gr Varmint grenades that should hit 4200 fps with the right powder!

Fire forming loads tend to be perfectly accurate, that case in the picture accounted for 1 of 2 foxes in the field with the lambs last night.

As for standard .223 being a pile of do-dah, you must have been unlucky with that rifle.
Prior to the ackley I had a rem 700 VSSF 1:12 and a CZ527 1:9, both seriously accurate with factory or home loads and the 1:9 would have coped with copper loads too!

As for licensing, an ackley is held on a standard slot, no variation needed.

 

[25 Sharps]

Interesting. I guess that 500fps really changes things. Good to know though - I'm careful on longer shots for exactly that reason, but to have it confirmed is useful.

The faster a bullet flies, the quieter it is? That's news to me. I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying?

Yeah, it was really disappointing as on paper they were good but I think the essence of it was they were designed to hold together at 25-06 velocities so didn’t expand well at lower speeds.

I’ve had the same with .224 bullets in hornet that are marketed as holding up to 22-250.

 

[Overlay]

View attachment 304164

I have a tikka 590 semi custom in .223 AI, used to belong to @sirslotsalot and a friend of his had it put together. It’s a quirky one at 1:14 but Alan told me his friend wanted something that would shoot light bullets well out to 350-400 yards. Which it does very well!!

An ackley chamber will fire factory/standard .223 perfectly well (that’s how you form the case) including copper subject to twist. Once formed you have the benefits of reloading with more powder capacity, so more velocity, better head spacing and virtually no case stretch. I don’t think I’ve been needed to trim a case in 4 or 5 years of owning the rifle and 6-700 rounds.

It will push a 50 gr to 3600 fps, 40 to 3800, 35 to 4075. I have some 30 gr Varmint grenades that should hit 4200 fps with the right powder!

Fire forming loads tend to be perfectly accurate, that case in the picture accounted for 1 of 2 foxes in the field with the lambs last night.

As for standard .223 being a pile of do-dah, you must have been unlucky with that rifle.
Prior to the ackley I had a rem 700 VSSF 1:12 and a CZ527 1:9, both seriously accurate with factory or home loads and the 1:9 would have coped with copper loads too!

As for licensing, an ackley is held on a standard slot, no variation needed.

thank you that’s brilliant
I had wondered since whether I copped a bad un
it was seriously in-accurate whatever I changed on ammo, scope, moderator etc etc it just wouldn’t group to where I wanted it after a while you fall out of bed with it and away it goes - onto the deuce thereafter
The Ackley sounds a good caliber

cheers

phil

 

[Bowland blades]

Interesting. I guess that 500fps really changes things. Good to know though - I'm careful on longer shots for exactly that reason, but to have it confirmed is useful.

The faster a bullet flies, the quieter it is? That's news to me. I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying?

No your not understanding , re read without adding anything
Energy in the bullet at the time of impact dictates the ricochet potential , very very rarely do you hear a CF ricochet because the bullet has to be slower than the speed of sound for the ricochet to be audible . Rimfire subs ? you hear
when you get a CF ricochet , you really dont know about it occurred till it impacts on something you really didn't want it to hit OR just ocasionally over a field of wet grass a rooster tail lifts of spray . I have yet to hear a " ZIIIING" like happens when a 22 subsonic ricochet occurs.
Look at range certification procedures for collaboration Muzzle Energy limits are set as a major factor on what can be used

 

[Foxyboy43]

No your not understanding , re read without adding anything
Energy in the bullet at the time of impact dictates the ricochet potential , very very rarely do you hear a CF ricochet because the bullet has to be slower than the speed of sound for the ricochet to be audible . Rimfire subs ? you hear
when you get a CF ricochet , you really dont know about it occurred till it impacts on something you really didn't want it to hit OR just ocasionally over a field of wet grass a rooster tail lifts of spray . I have yet to hear a " ZIIIING" like happens when a 22 subsonic ricochet occurs.
Look at range certification procedures for collaboration Muzzle Energy limits are set as a major factor on what can be used

Everyday a skool day! I always thought the ricochet sound was caused by the rapid tumbling of the bullet.

 

[Skinny78]

No I get it but .17 HMR and .223 are relatively close together and a lot of people think HMR is a magic wand because the bullets disintegrate in contact with anything, which just is not true!

It bounces and carries its energy

17 hmr and 223 are light years apart. Ive shot plenty of deer (reds included) with a 223 but would never take those same shots with my 17 hmr.

 

[25 Sharps]

thank you that’s brilliant
I had wondered since whether I copped a bad un
it was seriously in-accurate whatever I changed on ammo, scope, moderator etc etc it just wouldn’t group to where I wanted it after a while you fall out of bed with it and away it goes - onto the deuce thereafter
The Ackley sounds a good caliber

cheers

phil

Yeah, sounds like a bad rifle which is unlucky. The deuce is a good cartridge, not as verrsatile in terms of twists and bullet weights available but for shooting foxes at 2-300 yards that makes no difference.

Ackleys are great, nosler do factory ammunition for .280AI and I believe rifles too. When (if) my 6.5x55 barrel gives up it will get rebarrelled as an ackley. That’s not a cartridge Ackley felt needed improving from what I’ve read but I think in a modern action it will be a great cartridge for all UK deer and it’ll beat the creedmoor

 

[25 Sharps]

Everyday a skool day! I always thought the ricochet sound was caused by the rapid tumbling of the bullet.

Don’t listen to that particular teacher, he’s talking cobblers, if you have a supersonic ricochet you will hear a sonic crack, no different to when supersonic bullet is in normal flight. A subsonic ricochet will be silent or give you the familiar zing you get from a .22.

 

[25 Sharps]

17 hmr and 223 are light years apart. Ive shot plenty of deer (reds included) with a 223 but would never take those same shots with my 17 hmr.

Yes and no, they are relatively close together, compared to say .22 LR with subs and a 7 mm rem mag.

 

[Smellydog]

I've heard plenty zinging from a cf bullet

 

[Foxyboy43]

Well then! Maybe I am not daft after all…..

Why does a ricocheting bullet make the sound it does? | Naked Science Forum

When a bullet bounces off a wall or another hard object it produces a very distinctive whining noise. Why?

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