.17HMR Winchester ammo - is it working?

[nun_hunter]

I still get some, not many, split necks with the Winchester but only after firing. As long as the case has held together until the shot has gone I'm not that concerned what the case is like.

Years ago when still pistol shooting we used a lot of Blaser .38, .357 and I think 9mm ammo because it was cheap. For a reason too as the cases were one use and chuck, there was no way you could reload them but they served a purpose without needing to be the best quality brass on the market - not sure they were even brass.

It would be interesting to know what make your rifle is and how many rounds have been put through it since new. I've put a few thousands through my CZ Varmint and still get sub inch groups at 100 yards, we did it last w/e.

Its a CZ452, sporter barrel about 3 years old and around 1200 rounds. I've tried not cleaninf, just pushing a patch through, boresnake and full on deep clean. not much seems to make a difference at the moment.

I look through the boxes of ammo and take out any that are split prior to firing. I still have had hangfires from those that didn't appear spilit prior to firing but I suppose it only takes a micro-scopic crack to allow in some moisture and that could affect the powder burn.

 

[Muir]

Muir a 'Lot' in this country is a numbered item in an auction!

In fact the word 'batch' is used in the term 'batch production' which pertains to a manufacturing process in producing 'a lot' of the same items made from different components from a short uninterrupted manufacturing run. e.g. Until the production line is stopped to re-calibrate the powder measure, seating depth etc. Then the process is re-started creating a new batch.

However I'm happy calling it 'batch' or 'lot' - I think we all understand!

In your country, many individuals still refer to bullets as 'heads' but that doesn't make it right. Recall notices and correspondence will refer to ammunition with specific "LOT" numbers. Call it a batch if you will, but that is not what the manufacturer calls it. Persist if you must.

As to your more recent post about the necks splitting only after firing. You are incorrect: The necks are splitting during firing. It is coming apart most likely as the bullet is still in the neck.. This is a sign of inferior ammunition, much like the aluminum case Blazer rounds you spoke of. So disliked by shooters that they phased production into brass casings.

There were many years of 17HMR production during which no cases split on firing. They have cheapened their production standards and you guys are giving them a Pass all the same. Where is your self respect? I stopped buy it and shooting it. And I won't touch my HMR's until they get their collective acts back together.~Muir

 

[The deer man]

In your country, many individuals still refer to bullets as 'heads' but that doesn't make it right. Recall notices and correspondence will refer to ammunition with specific "LOT" numbers. Call it a batch if you will, but that is not what the manufacturer calls it. Persist if you must.

As to your more recent post about the necks splitting only after firing. You are incorrect: The necks are splitting during firing. It is coming apart most likely as the bullet is still in the neck.. This is a sign of inferior ammunition, much like the aluminum case Blazer rounds you spoke of. So disliked by shooters that they phased production into brass casings.

There were many years of 17HMR production during which no cases split on firing. They have cheapened their production standards and you guys are giving them a Pass all the same. Where is your self respect? I stopped buy it and shooting it. And I won't touch my HMR's until they get their collective acts back together.~Muir

Agreed, bullets are bullets not heads and obviously irritates you as much me! I'm sure you've heard of Eley, if you haven't they are a British ammunition manufacturer who refer to what you call a lot as a batch. So persist I will as it is my language in my country however I'm quite happy you calling it a lot in the USA, we can all understand both words.

If the necks are not split before firing isn't it obvious it's due to firing and thus after firing. You can be as pedantic as you like but I think most of us are intelligent enough to work that one out. The ammunition has been cheapened and I remember when it was all pretty good but what has your domestic market done about it? Seemingly bugger all. Our entire UK market is about as large as one of your major shooting outlets and in reality has no influence whatever.

Where we are today is that one company has made a move to distance themselves from a persistent problem. It's not perfect but a lot better and I among many I know who still shoot the 17HMR find this Winchester VARMINT HV ammunition accurate and as long as it still shoots from our rifles like that I don't give a damn if the case splits during and thus after firing.

As your recent experience of anything 17HMR seems limited, by your own admission, how about taking it up again and give a newly tested opinion rather than consigning many shooters rifles to the bin?

 

[Muir]

"Agreed, bullets are bullets not heads and obviously irritates you as much me! I'm sure you've heard of Eley, if you haven't they are a British ammunition manufacturer who refer to what you call a lot as a batch. So persist I will as it is my language in my country however I'm quite happy you calling it a lot in the USA, we can all understand both words."

Fair enough. When in Rome, eh?

"If the necks are not split before firing isn't it obvious it's due to firing and thus after firing. You can be as pedantic as you like but I think most of us are intelligent enough to work that one out. The ammunition has been cheapened and I remember when it was all pretty good but what has your domestic market done about it? Seemingly bugger all. Our entire UK market is about as large as one of your major shooting outlets and in reality has no influence whatever."

I'm saying that the cases are splitting at peak pressure which in a rim fire can occur very much at the time the bullet is leaving the neck. It may not have any effect on accuracy, but then, since Standard Deviation and Extreme Spread can be closely related to neck tension, maybe it does. It would also allow gasses to vent along side of the bullet as it makes it's journey into the rifling. I know the average accuracy level the current cartridges are giving (by accounts) is bested by a handful of my 22WMR rifles. That didn't used to be.

My beef with the HMR started long before the split neck issue. I have a brick and a half of 17HMR of which about 80% will not expand when hitting game.... which is a damned shame because it is superbly accurate. Another LOT (there's that word again) expands but delivers 1.5 MOA from a rifle that has logged 200M groups of 1/2 MOA with the good ammo. What shooters in my locale have done over the last few years is simply shy away from the rifles and ammunition -despite the best efforts of CCI/Hornady to indirectly force someone desiring a rimfire to buy a 17HMR because there is no other rimfire ammunition available. (22LR and 22WMR is almost totally absent from our shelves and has been for a very, very long time.) Stores have stock-piles of 17HMR ammo and absolutely no shortage of rifles. If you go to the SHOT Show in Las Vegas and ask them about the HMR issue you get a shrug and a blank stare. And maybe that's the issue in a nut shell: Hornady/CCI doesn't seem to give a hoot.

And that sucks because I really like the 17HMR. I truly do, but as long as Hornady is behind the presses -and I've heard that Winchester is getting brass from Hornady/CCI due to problems with the 17WSRM- I won't support them. I will make you a promise though. I will hunt down a couple of hundred rounds of the new issue HMR and shoot them in my HMR's. I will choose one rifle and chronograph the rounds and calculate SD. I will record the LOT numbers. Ok??~Muir

 

[Fursty Ferret]

Consistancy is better in the new winchester hv ammo but still not on a par (far from it) on what the hmr "used to be".....ffs why dont they just sort it out once and for all!!!
I have got myself a .22 wmr now. I still have the hmr and dont suppose I will get rid but you only have to look at all the talk about "alternatives" to the hmr to wonder when manufacturers will finally pull their heads out of their arses and put things right!!!

 

[The deer man]

Had the .17 HMR out late this afternoon on the range. Fired 20 rounds of Winchester VARMINT HV with this rifle, x4 five shot groups using x2 2" targets (rabbit head size) at 100 yards.

First - no misfires
Second - Out of 20 cases, 2 were split after firing. I polished all these cases and inspected them with a magnifying glass.
Thirdly - Accuracy 1st five 1.5", 2nd five 1.2", 3rd five under 1", 4th five 1.2"

All these shots would have head shot a rabbit at 100 yards however not sure I was on form. I'd just cut 200 yards of grass on my range, was covered in sweat, cuttings, flies and thunderbugs - so not in the best mood!

However, I was pleased with my 6.5x55, 0.5" 3 shot group with moderator on and 0.75" group with the moderator off. I'd calmed down and the flies had gone by then!

Anybody got any more info lets hear it. Have you had a go yet Muir?

 

[Muir]

Had the .17 HMR out late this afternoon on the range. Fired 20 rounds of Winchester VARMINT HV with this rifle, x4 five shot groups using x2 2" targets (rabbit head size) at 100 yards.

First - no misfires
Second - Out of 20 cases, 2 were split after firing. I polished all these cases and inspected them with a magnifying glass.
Thirdly - Accuracy 1st five 1.5", 2nd five 1.2", 3rd five under 1", 4th five 1.2"

All these shots would have head shot a rabbit at 100 yards however not sure I was on form. I'd just cut 200 yards of grass on my range, was covered in sweat, cuttings, flies and thunderbugs - so not in the best mood!

However, I was pleased with my 6.5x55, 0.5" 3 shot group with moderator on and 0.75" group with the moderator off. I'd calmed down and the flies had gone by then!

Anybody got any more info lets hear it. Have you had a go yet Muir?

Not yet. Too busy cleaning up after a flood and preparing for the Soap Creek Prairiedog Assn annual shoot. I'll get there...~Muir

 

[The deer man]

Not yet. Too busy cleaning up after a flood and preparing for the Soap Creek Prairiedog Assn annual shoot. I'll get there...~Muir

Hope you've dried out ok. As a matter of interest what rifle / cal will you be using for your Prairiedog shoot?

 

[Muir]

Hope you've dried out ok. As a matter of interest what rifle / cal will you be using for your Prairiedog shoot?

I'm almost dry, thanks. Ripping out soggy walls and paneling in the basement.
I'll be using a Hornet, primarily, with a .223 and 204 as back-up.~Muir

 

[The deer man]

I'm almost dry, thanks. Ripping out soggy walls and paneling in the basement.
I'll be using a Hornet, primarily, with a .223 and 204 as back-up.~Muir

Soggy here, raining until tomorrow. Do many use 22-250 for this sort of hunting? I'm looking at a new rifle but can't decide on 22-250 or 223. 223 is easy and cheap to feed but 22-250 seems the more sensible choice, for foxing and varmints over here. Probably end up with whats available.

 

[Muir]

Soggy here, raining until tomorrow. Do many use 22-250 for this sort of hunting? I'm looking at a new rifle but can't decide on 22-250 or 223. 223 is easy and cheap to feed but 22-250 seems the more sensible choice, for foxing and varmints over here. Probably end up with whats available.

The 22-250 is very popular for varmints in this region but I don't shoot one anymore. I like using the Hornet because i have spent many years using it. The .222 and .223 are the next step up for me. The 204 shoots flat and i like it for as little (relatively) as I've used it. A 22-250 will reach out and stomp fox in the same manner it trounces coyotes. My last -or at least the one I did a lot of load development for- was very accurate despite having a goodly bit of erosion in the throat. ~Muir

 

[AnthonyR]

Getting back on topic, I bought a box of the new Winchester HV 17gr HMR today and have been out to compare it to the existing Remington I have been using for a while.

I shot 2 five shot groups with the Win ammo, this was the best one, the other was way worse, more like 2" Average fps was 2456 with a very low spread.

I then shot this 5 shot group with my existing Rem ammo, average fps was 2565 with a higher spread than the Win:

For comparison, I also took a pic of the 8 shot group I shot with the Rem ammo when the barrel was cold and clean, no HMR I have used has shot well with a clean barrel:

The rifle was just starting to group on the last 3 shots.

Obviously I won't be going back to buy anymore Win, some of them were very difficult to chamber and had a very stiff bolt on opening as well, shame as I was really hoping for better.

 

[The deer man]

AnthonyR, just for interest sake what's the rifle and barrel length? I've been getting groups like your last picture with the Winchester VARMINT HV but without the two fliers. Like you I have noticed, historically, that my rifle tends to tighten up the groups after firing 20 or so rounds. Whether this is because it self cleans or likes being dirty I have no idea.

However I once got a light bit of rust in the barrel and it shot terribly. I dry cleaned it, patched it with Youngs 303 oil, dry cleaned it through and shot it. It took 20 plus rounds to settle back to shooting 3/4" groups.

Anybody have any idea what the expected barrel life of a 17HMR might be?

Hornady news. . .
I was talking to a Gunshop last week about the .17HMR ammo issues and he believes Hornady have strengthened their cases and eradicated the split case and misfire issues, he was quite insistent about it and claimed to have spoken to his Hornady agent and received confirmation from them to that effect. This applies to all the new Hornady ammo. Any one heard of this?

 

[AnthonyR]

The rifle is a Sako Quad Range which I have had the barrel shortened to 18"

Cleaning is a bit quandary but I hate leaving my barrels dirty for more than a few days if they are not going to be used.

My Quad is quite new, less 100 rounds down the tube, my old Annie 1517 had about 6500 down it when I sold it, it was still OK but definitely not as good as when it was new. I will not keep the barrel on this Quad as long as that but at least I haven't got to change the rifle this time.

 

[Muir]

This applies to all the new Hornady ammo. Any one heard of this?

I haven't heard that. The problem isn't one of case strength. It's either alloy or annealing; both of which are costly to adjust. Remember that the HMR operates at the same pressures as 22WMR and 17M2 and most 22LR, for that matter; a strengthened case isn't necessarily called for. They made the cartridge for almost a decade with no problems, right? I truly suspect they contracted for some cartridge brass with a higher than usual zinc content to cut costs. The US military did this with 30-40 brass around the turn of the century and simply sizing a case and leaving it sit for a time would cause the necks to split open like daisy petals. I doubt Hornady carried it to that extent but it might explain the 'spontaneous' splits people are finding in new ammunition and then those found after firing.~Muir

 

[The deer man]

The rifle is a Sako Quad Range which I have had the barrel shortened to 18"

Cleaning is a bit quandary but I hate leaving my barrels dirty for more than a few days if they are not going to be used.

My Quad is quite new, less 100 rounds down the tube, my old Annie 1517 had about 6500 down it when I sold it, it was still OK but definitely not as good as when it was new. I will not keep the barrel on this Quad as long as that but at least I haven't got to change the rifle this time.

Well there shouldn't be anything wrong with your barrel! But interesting what you say about your Annie 1517. I suspect some loss of accuracy might be down to barrel wear. Mines done 4000/5000 rounds, I'm really not sure. The accuracy is not as good as when I first got it, it was an absolute tack driver, but is it down to the ammo, barrel wear or me (I'd like to think not though!).

Muir, interesting what you say about the zinc content. If this is the reason, what a relatively simple solution manufacturers could adopt.

 

[Muir]

Muir, interesting what you say about the zinc content. If this is the reason, what a relatively simple solution manufacturers could adopt.

They could go back the 70/30 mix and have ductile brass. Adequate annealing might be helpful as well. I have seen many times on this board, members offering a note of sympathy on Hornady's behalf opining that the neck splits were unavoidable because you can't anneal the case after priming. Well, Duh. The cases are primed before final sizing which allows plenty of opportunity to anneal before priming. If you do away with the annealing, you do away with that part of the manufacturing process (and all the expense required to operate it) and the subsequent polishing required afterwards. That cuts "line time" and man hours. Combine that with a zincy alloy and you save a considerable amount money and time.

I have said it before: Like my ex wife, the HMR is something I was very much taken with before it became unnecessarily cheapened.~Muir

 

[The deer man]

they could go back the 70/30 mix and have ductile brass. Adequate annealing might be helpful as well. I have seen many times on this board, members offering a note of sympathy on hornady's behalf opining that the neck splits were unavoidable because you can't anneal the case after priming. Well, duh. The cases are primed before final sizing which allows plenty of opportunity to anneal before priming. If you do away with the annealing, you do away with that part of the manufacturing process (and all the expense required to operate it) and the subsequent polishing required afterwards. That cuts "line time" and man hours. Combine that with a zincy alloy and you save a considerable amount money and time.

I have said it before: Like my ex wife, the hmr is something i was very much taken with before it became unnecessarily cheapened.~muir

"ouch!"

 

[The deer man]

Apparently there was also a statement made in the trade press???

 

[Muir]

"ouch!"

Truth hurts sometimes. ~Muir