2 dead red deer in Newton Aycliffe game dealers today
- Thread starter dodgyrog
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I do beleive you are correct shortshot. Most parks handle and tag there deer and from the ones I know do cull out of season, within humane reasoning e.g barren hinds, or males all year round.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Shortshot, let me know which parks you manage on this basis as the industry could do with a test case to put this to bed once and for all, i'm sure the RSPCA/LACS would be happy to take up the baton on a sure fire win out of season shooting case. Sako 85 is correct in that parks where all the deer are tagged can rightly be considered as farms or zoo's but I am afraid that this only accounts for a very small proportion of the 150-180 parks in the UK. I tried to show the links from the Defra wedsite but it is being reconstructed at the moment. As for the 'Farmers Defence', that is probably the most abused piece of wildlife legislation there is. JC
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I've just re-read some of the recent posts on this tread and others and, to be honest, I am a little disturbed. Is this the Stalking Directory or the Deer Killing Directory? Why are we constantly looking for loophopes in the law to kill more deer, kill them out of season, use rifles and cartridges/bullets that are borderline legal etc.
I am a full time deer manager and, like so many estates, I have an overpopulation of deer in my park and in my wild areas (sounds like an AA meeting intro...'My names JC and I have too many deer...'!)
Do I shoot out of season? No, I work bloody hard in the seasons and accept that it is going to take me several years of hard graft and commitment to my job to get the situation sorted out.
Maybe i'm the mug and should take the easier, but illegal path, but i'm afraid thats not me. The reason the 'Farmers Defence' is called a 'Defence' is because it is accepted in law that by doing this you will leave yourself open to prosecution and may well have to 'Defend' yourself. Sounds like a risky business to me, personally I prefer not to sail this close to the wind.
I'm not ashamed to say that the reason that I chose this profession is because I love working with deer not because I like to hear the rifle go bang. I can count as personal friends and colleagues several of the UK's most eminent and experienced professional deer managers and, almost to a man, they have very little interest in shooting/rifles/ballistics etc despite generally culling in excess of 500 deer a year. Most of them, myself included, were working with deer before they started shooting them. The point I am making is that some of us are stockmen and some of us are killers, you choose your camp, I have already chosen mine.
Looks like I am in a minority so I will step back from this subject and go to bed, maybe tomorrow it won't be raining and perhaps the 'Deer world' will be a brighter place too.
End-Ex.
Good night.
JC
I am a full time deer manager and, like so many estates, I have an overpopulation of deer in my park and in my wild areas (sounds like an AA meeting intro...'My names JC and I have too many deer...'!)
Do I shoot out of season? No, I work bloody hard in the seasons and accept that it is going to take me several years of hard graft and commitment to my job to get the situation sorted out.
Maybe i'm the mug and should take the easier, but illegal path, but i'm afraid thats not me. The reason the 'Farmers Defence' is called a 'Defence' is because it is accepted in law that by doing this you will leave yourself open to prosecution and may well have to 'Defend' yourself. Sounds like a risky business to me, personally I prefer not to sail this close to the wind.
I'm not ashamed to say that the reason that I chose this profession is because I love working with deer not because I like to hear the rifle go bang. I can count as personal friends and colleagues several of the UK's most eminent and experienced professional deer managers and, almost to a man, they have very little interest in shooting/rifles/ballistics etc despite generally culling in excess of 500 deer a year. Most of them, myself included, were working with deer before they started shooting them. The point I am making is that some of us are stockmen and some of us are killers, you choose your camp, I have already chosen mine.
Looks like I am in a minority so I will step back from this subject and go to bed, maybe tomorrow it won't be raining and perhaps the 'Deer world' will be a brighter place too.
End-Ex.
Good night.
JC
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deerwarden
Well-Known Member
J.C. I too share your sentiments and attitude to deer and the "job", I was invited to see deer out of interest, it immediately became my sole outdoor pastime and a passion. I was lucky to be taught by a full time F.C. ranger, who installed the idea that you shoot when needed, not when you want to. I have tried to impart this on the many people I have mentored or taken out as a client. Many enjoy the day because of the diverse content of a days stalking, even when a shot cannot be taken, many again just want to kill something. They remain the same throughout their time in the sport, they want to pull the trigger, wanting bigger deer and numbers, and longer shots to test their ability to kill, leading on to armchair stalkers who know it all and have done it all badly. The others become interested in their involvement with deer and develop a quest for knowledge, betterment of their craft, and a delight to take out. I recently took a member out, Tom 270, who wanted to spend a day with me, fired his rifle on our range, and because of his poor species recognition wanted to watch and identify deer, listened to my suggestions throughout the day, stayed the whole day and then drove 160 miles home. His two recent write ups shows he's one of the people who will not become a killer, and a pleasure to take out and not feel pressured to present a target/deer to kill, he will stalk with me again and take another deer species, it will be my pleasure to make it happen. We develop the stock man approach once we respect the ethos of deer management and despise the use of deer as a target to shoot at long range, through light vegetation, when their lying down or badly presented. Their is always another day or way to do it properly, you choose to pull the trigger every time, its a path you take to become killer of deer, or a stalker who respects his quarry, or as some of us are a professional deer manager. deerwarden
JC275, and Deerwarden.
I fear that not enough people share your mentality. I wish that there were more. There are a lot of people, not only subscribers to this forum, who are too eager to make the kill and fill the freezer. I believe that stalking is about respect and with that sustainable management can be maintained. I love deer stalking. I do not do it as often as I'd like, but since I started years ago my approach has certainly changed as my respect has developed, and I enjoy the whole experience a lot more because of it.
I fear that not enough people share your mentality. I wish that there were more. There are a lot of people, not only subscribers to this forum, who are too eager to make the kill and fill the freezer. I believe that stalking is about respect and with that sustainable management can be maintained. I love deer stalking. I do not do it as often as I'd like, but since I started years ago my approach has certainly changed as my respect has developed, and I enjoy the whole experience a lot more because of it.
centralbeltstalker
Well-Known Member
This" holier than thou attitude" is all very laudible but...... I'm a farmerfor last 35 years, born and bred the son of a forester.... pleasure, ethos , respect, joy are all emotions I too share for deer but the barley is in ear and the hayfields are looking close too mowing. What do you think I should do when half a dozen red deer stags are taking up nightly residence in a cornfield 6 weeks off harvest ? and 7 weeks short of "open season." Or indeed as a neighbouring farmer told me last night he saw 16 reds in a third partys' mowing grass? Hinds, stags, followers; What do we do, sacrifice our crop to the Deer? What should the forester do when fallow are pulling his trees out the ground day on day??? Farmers defence is contrary too what you like too believe what makes the Deer Acts practical and not an add on for dodgy operators.
If deer need controlling at all it really is ongoing and not like shooting pheasants!
If deer need controlling at all it really is ongoing and not like shooting pheasants!
Well that's a grim picture you paint JC/DW, Not the picture I see, I could think of only one of the many stalkers that I have the pleasure of terming friends, who could be mistakenly described as a "Deerkiller", this could come about because he is a consumate stalker, an outstanding rifleman, & has a passion for the deer....he suffers from what I can only describe as withdrawal symptoms when away from the hill, any day he has "not killed anything" results from suitable deer not presenting,and or his failure in fieldcraft, I have witnessed this stalker observing deer well within his shooting capabilities & they have moved on unharmed.
Mannlicher_Stu
Well-Known Member
just seen two kippers in a fish mongers!!! what is the world coming to!!!!
Talking of kippers I have known a few women who must have cured them in their drawers
On the subject of the deer.
Its common knowledge that the F.Commision and some other bodies hold a right to operate if its brown its down policy and operate within their own rules, and as they are a Government body they are beyond reproach. If damage is being done to crops or if their is insufficient natural food in place in any given situation they will act accordingly for the benefit of deer welfare and act quickly its part of their management program to do so.
I accept it is controversial to some and in some cases it is considered over the top and that they should manage there cull figures as written into the deer act but needs must sometimes.
The use of helecopters and total outright decimation of herds as that has happened in the past is a prime example of DCS and FC capabilities personally i dont agree with it and other controls in some of the circumstances could be considered there are exceptions like the situation where inclement weather made it near impossible to manage deer that was sufferring through lack of food that needed to be addressed but those situations are extreemly rare thank god
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Ok, lets use an example that is right up to the minute. Grass for silage, you see your 16 red deer in the field, the damage that they are potentially going to do is by laying on it not eating it so we are talking about 16 patches of flat grass about 2'6'' by 18''. So, in response, you are going to go out and punish these deer by shooting as many as you can and getting them down to the gamedealers. We have had three bouts of torrential rain here in the last 48 hrs, every grass field that has not already been mown is flat as a pancake, who are we going to punish for this?
I am clearly not going to change your view of our largest land mammal as a farm pest so do as you will, as you say, you have the 'Farmers Defence' to use if ever you are apprehended. I see mention of Stag hunting in one of your previous posts, how come the red deer of the West Country could do no wrong in the good old days of hunting but now they are next to vermin!
Deer damage was only one of the two issues being discussed, the other was illegal shooting of park deer which you had an opinion on. I will ask the same question again, which parks do you personally manage by out of season shooting? And, more importantly, why would you want to? Please explain to me why I would want to kill a doe between 1 April and 31 October when she is either just about to fawn or is rearing a fawn, and why would I want to kill a buck out of season when I already have 9 months to do it legally in! The only possible answer is for commercial gain ie to supply venison into a market when the law abiding people can't.
I can't be bothered to take this any further.
Best wishes,
JC
bambislayer
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately [particularily in certain upland areas] there are far too many deer, there are various reasons for this, mostly all down to man.
There is only one management tool for this situation and that is a rifle!
I personally didn't set out to become a "killer" and come from a very traditional stalking background, but because of my background and learning from some great guys, it gave me the ability to effectively stalk and shoot deer, hence when faced with big numbers you are equiped with the skills and the determination to do it.
I have in many occassions returned from the hill empty handed because the situations weren't right for a safe shot or a suitable animal was found, I also spend many an hour watching wildlife including deer without the urge to kill it. I do however take issue with the mind set that to be a "real stalker" you must view killing deer as a nesessary evil, well I don't, I make no appologies for the fact that I enjoy killing [sorry culling] deer just as I enjoy shooting foxes and watching rugby.
The only reason for big culls is the fact that some old "traditional" tweed clad stalker smoking a pipe did sweet fa for 40 years and in order to make his life easier allowed numbers to increase!!!!!
Unlike grouse and other game the easiest way to have deer is to do nothing!
The only way to manage deer is by correct culling, the fact that you have a full freezer and a good time doing it is a bonus. Forums like this, stalking magazines, cull data, reloading manuals, management plans are all useless unless there is a dedicated man in the field with a rifle [lets hope he isn't too traumatised by the site of dead deer to do his job without having to seek therapy]
There is only one management tool for this situation and that is a rifle!
I personally didn't set out to become a "killer" and come from a very traditional stalking background, but because of my background and learning from some great guys, it gave me the ability to effectively stalk and shoot deer, hence when faced with big numbers you are equiped with the skills and the determination to do it.
I have in many occassions returned from the hill empty handed because the situations weren't right for a safe shot or a suitable animal was found, I also spend many an hour watching wildlife including deer without the urge to kill it. I do however take issue with the mind set that to be a "real stalker" you must view killing deer as a nesessary evil, well I don't, I make no appologies for the fact that I enjoy killing [sorry culling] deer just as I enjoy shooting foxes and watching rugby.
The only reason for big culls is the fact that some old "traditional" tweed clad stalker smoking a pipe did sweet fa for 40 years and in order to make his life easier allowed numbers to increase!!!!!
Unlike grouse and other game the easiest way to have deer is to do nothing!
The only way to manage deer is by correct culling, the fact that you have a full freezer and a good time doing it is a bonus. Forums like this, stalking magazines, cull data, reloading manuals, management plans are all useless unless there is a dedicated man in the field with a rifle [lets hope he isn't too traumatised by the site of dead deer to do his job without having to seek therapy]
i was once on a bds range day there were two fc rangers shooting!! they both had accuracy international rifles!! they were probably from where these deer came from.some one said to me they are deer shooters not deer stalkers!! i must say ime not into that and i always stalk close to deer,if i want to sit and have a distance shot i shoot at a paper target!!! much more fun me thinks. if you cant manage your cull figures your in the wrong job,or need help!!
bambislayer
Well-Known Member
don't know the guys [either do you by the sounds of it] so I can't comment.
Who cares what rifle they had, the term "deer killer, not deer stalker" is banded about a lot, and is often just a quirk. Believe me you don't get to be an FC ranger working with deer now if you don't have good deer knowledge and field skills as you just couldn't do the job. Many Rangers often use these terms just because that type of bravado makes it easier to do the job, you have to be pragmatic about it , and you just don't have time to be sentimental , this doesn't make you cruel , it makes you more eficient both finacialy and as a manager, wounded or lost deer are both ethically and finacially wrong, the men at the top of the business know that.
The fact is that given the right man and resources a man can easily cull 500 +a year, it's damm hard work. In these situations with populations that high, let/recreational stalking [I know that many recreational stalkers are excellent at it and could outmatch many in the job] just doesn't work. In Scotland you no longer recieve a restock grant, therefore you just can't accept losses in trees. I was on site last week where the owner was trying to restock douglas Fir, 90% of the plants were munched by deer in 3months? His keeper is now in a bit of bother!!!! I have suggestd either fencing [no grants available] or shooting heavily which would involve their sporting cull of 150roe going up to at least 350 in the first year , what would you do, remember he has just lost a heap of money on feeding deer his trees.
i think may be get in help/sell days ect,would people on the ground every day not help??? i don`t know whats your views???
bambislayer
Well-Known Member
My own view was that it should have been fenced right at the start as they already let quite a few bucks.
The type of woodlands they have I would suspect in order to achieve a heavy cull and reduce damage without fencing they will need to shoot on the restocks at night.
Fencing in this situation is the only option but it is not always the case, fences may stop damage but they don't regulate populations.
I hope the owner follows my advice.
The type of woodlands they have I would suspect in order to achieve a heavy cull and reduce damage without fencing they will need to shoot on the restocks at night.
Fencing in this situation is the only option but it is not always the case, fences may stop damage but they don't regulate populations.
I hope the owner follows my advice.
I think the points that I was pursueing have been lost in translation and it is probably best that they were as there seemed to be no conclusion. I am very interested to read Bambislayers points from a hill prospective as this is an area were I have very limited experience. I am pleased that we seem to have been able to have several pages of debate on a quite serious subject without things turning sour. Maybe we are all on the same side after all. JC
~Personally
i would take this as an oppertunity to fund the restocking myself
it ain't that difficult planting a few trees
Plus the cost of re-planting is easily affordable from profits gained by selling the stalking
especially as you hav suggested about 350 deer over the next year
there should be no issuses with lack deer to show any interested parties or individual pay to stalks
win-win allround except for the deer ,
but thats business and life i'm afraid
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