2 questions relating to Joinery...

[merlin]

My son is a qualified Joiner via an Apprenticeship route, and after a period working for a couple of local firms, he has decided to try and make a go of it working for himself.

He is a grafter, registered as self-employed with a UTR, CSCS card, public liability insurance, own tools, own transport, and - from what I've seen - capable of cutting a piece of wood to the right length (...which is more than I can do.... I'm a soft-handed office monkey....)

When he took the decision to go it alone doing domestic joinery, initially focusing on skirting/doors/that type of stuff (as opposed to building full extensions, for example), lots of people said "there is LOADS of that type of work out there".... and there may well be, but it doesn't really appear to be coming his way, even as enquiries. Now obviously he is going from a total standing start so didn't expect to be inundated from day #1, so knowing there seem to be quite a tradesmen on SD, I'd like to pick the collective brains.....

FIRST ASK: what else could/should Charlie be doing to bridge that gap between folk having jobs & him having capacity? (For background, he has set up a Facebook business page, registered with Google so he can be found on there, I'm telling everyone I speak to, he has registered with a few 'MyBuilder''-type referral sites recently....). I've suggested he get on LinkedIn; does shoving leaflets through people's letterboxes work these days, or is that just money down the drain?? I appreciate word-of-mouth is what will really get him motoring, but he needs to get an initial volume of work coming through in the first place to start building g up that network of satisfied customers, so it's rather catch-22 right now. All constructive suggestions gratefully received.

SECOND ASK (...I did say there were 2...!): if any of you live near Southport, or have friends, family, colleagues, whatever, that need any joinery work doing within a reasonable distance from here, could you at least consider asking Charlie? I'm happy to furnish his contact details upon request by PM (not putting them on an open forum). Any and all referrals will be genuinely appreciated.

He genuinely wants to work, he is capable and competitive (low overheads... still living at home with us LOL), and I just want to try and help him get that momentum going in these early days.

Thanks in advance for any input and/or work that will be of benefit to him.

 

[Tim.243]

My son is a qualified Joiner via an Apprenticeship route, and after a period working for a couple of local firms, he has decided to try and make a go of it working for himself.

He is a grafter, registered as self-employed with a UTR, CSCS card, public liability insurance, own tools, own transport, and - from what I've seen - capable of cutting a piece of wood to the right length (...which is more than I can do.... I'm a soft-handed office monkey....)

When he took the decision to go it alone doing domestic joinery, initially focusing on skirting/doors/that type of stuff (as opposed to building full extensions, for example), lots of people said "there is LOADS of that type of work out there".... and there may well be, but it doesn't really appear to be coming his way, even as enquiries. Now obviously he is going from a total standing start so didn't expect to be inundated from day #1, so knowing there seem to be quite a tradesmen on SD, I'd like to pick the collective brains.....

FIRST ASK: what else could/should Charlie be doing to bridge that gap between folk having jobs & him having capacity? (For background, he has set up a Facebook business page, registered with Google so he can be found on there, I'm telling everyone I speak to, he has registered with a few 'MyBuilder''-type referral sites recently....). I've suggested he get on LinkedIn; does shoving leaflets through people's letterboxes work these days, or is that just money down the drain?? I appreciate word-of-mouth is what will really get him motoring, but he needs to get an initial volume of work coming through in the first place to start building g up that network of satisfied customers, so it's rather catch-22 right now. All constructive suggestions gratefully received.

SECOND ASK (...I did say there were 2...!): if any of you live near Southport, or have friends, family, colleagues, whatever, that need any joinery work doing within a reasonable distance from here, could you at least consider asking Charlie? I'm happy to furnish his contact details upon request by PM (not putting them on an open forum). Any and all referrals will be genuinely appreciated.

He genuinely wants to work, he is capable and competitive (low overheads... still living at home with us LOL), and I just want to try and help him get that momentum going in these early days.

Thanks in advance for any input and/or work that will be of benefit to him.

@Norfolk Horn

 

[User00035]

Advertise specifically the services he provides. A lot of domestic customers, when they have a joinery job will simple Google/phone "a builder" because they don't know the difference between a carpenter and a plasterer. The "builder" will come out and price the job and take on himself, then send round one of his regular subbies to do the work with his cut on top.
You either have be on those contractor's radar so you get the trickle-down subbie work, or you have to advertise directly and locally stating clearly what you do son you stand out to customers.
Advertise in the local press, local shops, do card drops, or create a website with a domain that links carpentry and joinery prominently with your location so your site comes up at or near the top of the page on search engines.
Local advertising can be slow because it's a small pool, but can pay off long term because people always prefer local/word of mouth. It takes a while for that momentum to build that up and local advertising is where you start.

Maybe get yourself in with bigger contractors to get some subbying to start with, and get your name on the board with some of that subbie work, but at the same time push your local advertising so your name, verbally and in print, becomes familiar. Once you crack that market, your name spreads.

 

[Ruby Tuesday 2]

Is it worth him approaching a few local general builders and sub contracting to them while work picks up, down here sub contractor chippies are on a pretty good wage and seem in constant demand .The average private household tends to employ local handy men to do their work and don't look for dedicated carpenters.

 

[Ruby Tuesday 2]

Advertise specifically the services he provides. A lot of domestic customers, when they have a joinery job will simple Google/phone "a builder", who will come out and price the job and take it himself, then send round one of his regular subbies to do the work with his cut on top.
You either have be on those contractor's radar so you get the trickle-down, or you have to advertise directly and locally stating clearly what you do.
Advertise in the local press, local shops, do card drops, or create a website with a domain that links carpentry and joinery with your location so your site comes up at or near the top of the page on search engines.
Local advertising can be slow because it's a small pool, but can pay off long term because people always prefer local/word of mouth. It takes a while to build that up.

Maybe get yourself in with bigger contractors to start with, to get some of that subbie trickle-down, but at the same time push your local advertising so your name, verbally and in print becomes familiar. Once you crack that market, your name spreads.

Beat me to it.

 

[Len the dog]

If he knows any guys from other trades, eg plumbers, sparkies, plasterers, he could maybe team up with them. People want tradesmen to be able to do the complete job rather than trying to find all of the individuals themselves and the nightmare of fitting into each other's schedules. Those guys might be turning down work because the job requires a chippie.

 

[markyw]

I just want a trade I can trust to do a fair job for a fair rate and not have to finish up, clean up or redo anything after they have gone. If he advertises direct to the public, maybe make a thing of that trust, competency and a fair price (due to his aforementioned low overheads). Also bear in mind that sometimes people see less value ( read ‘skill’) in lower priced work....

I wish him luck. Nice to see a young, keen grafter trying to make something of himself.

Regards

Mark

 

[Pellet Pinger]

As others have said, he’d be better off subbing to a local firm for regular work while getting his name out there, once a few jobs come in if he is a grafter he won’t mind doing weekend work, a lot of folk are happy with this as they prefer to be around when they have tradesmen in and cant take time off in the week. Once it gets to the stage he can’t do it all at the weekend then it’s time to make the break.
Its worth joining all the Facebook sale pages in the area, round here it’s awash with people needing work doing, he could advertise and keep an eye out for work.
He also needs to be savvy keeping up to date with material costs, they go up week by week and if he’s not careful his profits will take a hit.

 

[User00035]

As above. But he needs first and foremost resilience and perseverance. Keep plugging, keeping putting himself forward and work his patch to build trust and build his name. There isn't a shortcut unless he shackles himself permanently to subbies. Head down, stick at it and it'll pay off.

 

[VSS]

The son of a friend of mine trained as a joiner in the same way. He's only a young lad, starting out. When the kitchen fitting work all dried up during lockdown he spent the time building a shepherd's hut in a shed on his dad's farm. It was so successful that he's now renting a workshop and building shepherd's huts (for sale as holiday glamping units) full time. And they sell for serious money.
So, the lesson to learn from this: Think outside the box to find other uses for the joinery skills.

 

[countrryboy]

Some good advice above either try to get in either subbing to other smaller building companies or other 1 man band tradesfolk or go the whole on subbing route bashing out poor quality kits for a bog box house company.
Which may not be ideal for a quality tradesman but pays the bills while he gets his feet.

I know quite a few lads that have made the jump, the 1 thin g i'll say the boys that just jump in really busy from day 1 tended to be the boys out jobbing every night after work and wknds so already had quite a decent client/customer base to start off with.

Just had some builders in at mine and had some good craic with 1 of the subby joiners, he's done a lot over the years travelling about quite a bit to jobs/staying away etc, but he said ( in the past so may have changed now) but shop fitting and shuttering joinery was always where the better money was at.
Both probably not deal for a good finishing joiner but all money

 

[countrryboy]

The son of a friend of mine trained as a joiner in the same way. He's only a young lad, starting out. When the kitchen fitting work all dried up during lockdown he spent the time building a shepherd's hut in a shed on his dad's farm. It was so successful that he's now renting a workshop and building shepherd's huts (for sale as holiday glamping units) full time. And they sell for serious money.
So, the lesson to learn from this: Think outside the box to find other uses for the joinery skills.

Aye we were doing some work on an estate that bought in a glamping pod, think bought about oct time was paid for within 8 months they now have to big sheds they converted to building them now, trying to knock 1 out a week and absolutely flat out with them.

saying that could be a bit of money in materials tied up in 1 before it was sold and money comes back in.
They are selling them for a hefty price, but do look quality must be 20 or 30ft long

 

[User00035]

Right now, the difficultly will be sourcing quality timber.

 

[countrryboy]

Right now, the difficultly will be sourcing quality timber.

It still can't be bad is it? Up here i thought everyting was back to normal now apart from the price.
Local mills are loaded to the gunnels with both sawn and round wood. Never seen so much timber in them.
Think back onto 4 day weeks.

Althou i do think they are trying only to drip feed it onto the market to keep prices sky high, not really fair as that is driving inflation up and only going to lead to a crash with house building and then they won't be able to sell it even if they wanted too.
Just greed really by the big business

 

[Bo Diddley]

Joiners generally work in a workshop, making windows, doors, staircases etc, I've earnt a living doing this since I left school 40 years ago, never had any training or qualifications, all my work comes word of mouth, I did have a website for a while but got no meaningful leads from it at all, local parish magazines if you have such things are a good place to advertise. I've done alright out of it tbf, I'm happy where I've got in life.
Carpenters on the other hand are doing site work or domestic dwellings, pitching roofs, skirtings/architraves, hanging doors, fitting kitchens etc, tools all in a van and going from job to job, kitchen fitting is good money, you need all the gear though. I should have got on the shepherd's huts twenty years ago, my sister-in-law had a small farm of 130 acres that was crying out for a few of them dotted around it as holiday lets, couldn't talk her into it... intransigent wench!
Keep plugging away and do a top-notch job and he'll have more work than he can cope with... recession looming i think though... Good luck!

 

[Fadcode]

living near Southport, which has more than its fair share of Victorian houses, maybe he should aim in that direction, renewing window frames, doorframes etc, as someone said he needs to think out of the box, I think anyone starting out in business has to have some sort of gimmick, a gimmick based on local needs, obviously a lot would depend on his capabilities, there are lots of niche markets such as built in wardrobes, bookcases, renewing sash windows, skirting, doorframes, doors in the style of the house, etc, one other way is to work as an agent for one of the big companies that advertise countrywide doing work on houses, garden sheds, porches etc, one of the common works being done down here in Cornwall is Fascia replacement,( not sure if this is carpentry, but they do use a saw), and as long as the work carried out is to a high standard, then word of mouth would bring in extra work as for advertising the cheapest way to do that is FB, aimed locally. Another way to garner work, is to have a word with builders merchants, who are quite willing to recommend tradesman to their customers when buying items from them that need a professional to fit them.

 

[ChesterP]

I sort of work in cabinetry (I design and build loudspeakers) and tbh the first 4 years were really hard graft. I went through all of this after a 25 yr professional career when I decided I'd like to do something for myself, with no knowledge of self employment. What I found that was a majority of my work now comes from a combination of repeat custom and word of mouth, with initially very little coming in off my website and facebook page. Of the two, the facebook page has attracted more traffic to my website and the orders come in as long as I do my bit and do a good job.

I would advise getting a few jobs under the belt, doing a good job and photo-documenting them for upload to a facebook page. Get friends and family to share the link to the page and if possible, links to local facebook market place or community pages, and he should see a few jobs come out of that. Ask for feedback (publish) and include on a website. Setting up a website isn't too bad especially with resources like Wordpress. Keep it simple to begin with, using a homepage photo of a showcase job or part of that, explaining who he is and what he does, how far he is willing to travel then a couple of extra pages on expertise gained, plenty of photos, feedback page and a contact page. Link that to an email address and contact tel number. Include one other with hourly rate and explain how to obtain a quote.

You really have to put yourself out there and the web is a good place to start.

I started with a handful of customers fairly local to me. 10 years on and I quote for work world-wide which I never would have believed. Honesty, hard graft, and doing the very best you can is essential as is treating each new customer as if they are all that matters. A really good customer experience will have people coming back.

Above all, tell the lad not to sell himself short. He should never compromise on what he has to charge to run the business and include enough to grow including tool allowances. It's surprising what you can get through in a year. Being realistic on what you really need to thrive in business is essential if it is to succeed, balanced with not being greedy.

 

[User00035]

It still can't be bad is it? Up here i thought everyting was back to normal now apart from the price.
Local mills are loaded to the gunnels with both sawn and round wood. Never seen so much timber in them.
Think back onto 4 day weeks.

Althou i do think they are trying only to drip feed it onto the market to keep prices sky high, not really fair as that is driving inflation up and only going to lead to a crash with house building and then they won't be able to sell it even if they wanted too.
Just greed really by the big business

I may need a load of sawn timber myself soon for a wooden workshop. It'll be sectional and timber clad. Spruce or Douglas fir for the structure and western Cedar for the cladding would do it. May have to travel to Scotland to find it. Nothing but Norway Spruce round here.

 

[User00035]

If the OP's lad wants to stick mostly to internal first and second fix work for now, he could advertise a kitchen fitting service as well.

When I was full time building extensions down south I had one old school chippie I'd use for all my work. Mostly he did cut roofs for me but he was a exceptionally good kitchen fitter. I knew his worktop joints would be perfect and however old and crooked the wall, he'd always get it perfectly flush.
A lot of people like the idea of buying a fitted kitchen but are less keen on using the supplier's fitting team. And all building firms will work this way with a trusted subbie. It's not a bad market to get into.
Often new kitchens are part of extensions or alterations and there'll be skirtings to fit as well and doors to hang etc.

 

[User00035]

Above all, tell the lad not to sell himself short. He should never compromise on what he has to charge to run the business and include enough to grow including tool allowances. It's surprising what you can get through in a year. Being realistic on what you really need to thrive in business is essential if it is to succeed, balanced with not being greedy.

This is very true. It's very tempting to price low as a sprat to catch a mackerel but it never pays. And most customers don't usually pick the cheapest quote.
Be realistic and professional.