223: Another powder question.

[ChesterP]

Have just tried N140 with some reloads which Cyres kindly helped out with whilst I wait to sort my reloading kit. N140 worked well with the 69g TMKs producing 0.6 inch 3 shot group off wobbly sticks at max load of 25.6gr. There were just some slight signs of reaching the max pressure such as very slight cratering of one of the primers but no ejector marks on the casing at all, so I may try another load wound back 0.1 or 0.2 grains to be on the safe side. It didn't fare so well with the 60g Vmax though even though the load was lightly compressed as I failed to better a 0.9 inch group at any load between 25 and 26gr. The rifle's twist is 1/8 but it shoots factory 50 grain Accutip really well over 200yds, with moa groups, so I know it will stabilise a lighter bullet weight well. It also shoots Hornady 55g factory at sub moa.

I'm thinking of sticking with the N140 for heavier bullet loads (69g and upwards) but what do others use for 50 to 60gr? I'd like to stick with VV powders as they work out cheaper than something like Varget and seem very clean burning too plus both my local stockists keep plenty of VV in stock. Is there anything to chose between N130 and N133 for these bullet weights?

I'm far more concerned with accuracy than velocity by the way. I'd rather be sure of hitting what I aim at every time than missing at high velocity!

 

[JTO]

Just looked at Richard Lee's manual and N-140 is not mentioned for anything lighter than 55grn bullets. N-120, N-130, N-133 and N-135 are all mentioned for bullets down to 40grn but not for anything lighter than 40grn.
The Nosler manual does not mention N-140 at all for .223, but it shows no load data for bullets heavier than 60grn.

 

[Sle]

I get really good results with 140 and 55gr vmax

 

[ChesterP]

Just looked at Richard Lee's manual and N-140 is not mentioned for anything lighter than 55grn bullets. N-120, N-130, N-133 and N-135 are all mentioned for bullets down to 40grn but not for anything lighter than 40grn.

I wasn't using it with 55gr bullets or lighter though JTO. I was using it with 60 and 69gr bullets. The question was which do folk prefer (and why) for 60g and below where N140 isn't (generally) as suited?

Sle....what load are you using with 55Vmax out of interest? (usual caveats applying, different rifle, different casings etc etc).

 

[JTO]

I wasn't using it with 55gr bullets or lighter though JTO. I was using it with 60 and 69gr bullets. The question was which do folk prefer (and why) for 60g and below where N140 isn't (generally) as suited?

Sle....what load are you using with 55Vmax out of interest? (usual caveats applying, different rifle, different casings etc etc).

Sorry! I thought your question was about loads of N-140 for '50-60grn' bullets.
Richard Lee mentions N-135 for up to 80grn bullets in .223.

 

[ChesterP]

Sorry! I thought your question was about loads of N-140 for '50-60grn' bullets.
Richard Lee mentions N-135 for up to 80grn bullets in .223.

135's a possibility too I guess. No short-cut to experience I know, but always useful to learn how others have got on with the other powders as 130 and 133 seem pretty popular.

 

[Milligan]

I'd be inclined to use the N140 down to 60gr. It worked fine on 63gr SMP's and having a single powder is a whole lot of convenience....

 

[ChesterP]

That's why I started with N140 Milligan as it seemed a very convenient way to go about it. However, with my rifle, it doesn't seem to shoot the 60g bullets anywhere near as well as the 69g but factory 50gr are fine. That tells me that it's not any issue with tight twist rate (1/8 seems very versatile at shooting light as well as heavier bullets....unlike my previous 1/12 which did light but not heavy) more that the powder isn't well suited to that bullet in that (26 inch) barrel.

 

[Andy Welch]

I use 24.5gr of N140 with 69r SMK in a 20" Remington 700 LTR with a 1 in 9 twist. works well for me.

 

[ChesterP]

Best group was definitely up towards max load in mine. Didn't try anything lower than 25gr so perhaps I should.

 

[jthyttin]

N140 worked well with the 69g TMKs producing 0.6 inch 3 shot group off wobbly sticks at max load of 25.6gr.
...
It didn't fare so well with the 60g Vmax though even though the load was lightly compressed as I failed to better a 0.9 inch group at any load between 25 and 26gr.

You need to fire a sufficient number of shots using a good rest and technique before you can draw any conclusions.

 

[bewsher500]

such as very slight cratering of one of the primers but no ejector marks on the casing at all,

Be inclined to follow the school of thought that cratering on its own is a more to do with slightly oversized firing pin hole as much as pressure
real pressure tends to flatten the primer and reduce the strike mark and certainly shows brightening on case walls and marks on the head

 

[ChesterP]

Be inclined to follow the school of thought that cratering on its own is a more to do with slightly oversized firing pin hole as much as pressure
real pressure tends to flatten the primer and reduce the strike mark and certainly shows brightening on case walls and marks on the head

In this case though Ed, it only affected cases loaded towards the top end of the recommended safe scale, and primers were slightly flattened, with the edge radius squashed a little, and some slight cratering indicating flow towards the bolt, so most definitely over-pressure signs. Medium and light loads were identical and still showed well defined primer shoulder radius and neat firing pin depressions with no signs of primer-flow.

Am going to load another batch, this time trying N133 and shooting larger group samples. I'll be starting with lower loads too and perhaps not loading much past the middle ground. Velocity is of no interest at the moment, accuracy/consistency is what I'm trying for.

 

[hairlesshunter]

I get very good results with n135 and 55gr vmax

 

[plumber01]

my usual load for 69gn is 24-5 of n135, in a remi 700 with 26inch heavy barrel , Ive tried up to 25-5 , but so far best is 24-5 gn.I can get about 2inch group at 200 meters, Im probably not capable of much more with a 223..........or anything else !

 

[Bilbo]

I'm thinking of sticking with the N140 for heavier bullet loads (69g and upwards) but what do others use for 50 to 60gr?

I use Reloder 15 with excellent results out of a very skinny barreled Remingtion Model 7. I use 26 grains of REL 15 with 55 gr Hornady V Max. For a 3 shot group usually get 2 touching with 3rd off by 1/2" inch or so @ 100 yds conditions allowing.

I seem to remember when working up that load that the accuracy node was within a pretty tight range of .2 / .3 grains of powder.

 

[KRW1]

When I first started home loading .223 I was given a load by someone as a place to start. It consisted of Vit N133 with V Max 55gr heads. I started, as you should, with a lower load and worked up to 24gr which gave good consistent results. I use a Remi 700 with a standard sport 24inch barrel not sure of the twist. In my rifle it gives an average speed of 3125ft sec. Have used this mix for many years to good effect on fox.

 

[ChesterP]

When I first started home loading .223 I was given a load by someone as a place to start. It consisted of Vit N133 with V Max 55gr heads. I started, as you should, with a lower load and worked up to 24gr which gave good consistent results. I use a Remi 700 with a standard sport 24inch barrel not sure of the twist. In my rifle it gives an average speed of 3125ft sec. Have used this mix for many years to good effect on fox.

I am starting at the lowest recommended end as that is the sensible thing to do, and working up to no more than 3/4 max load in 1% increments. First set of cases prepped (once fired). I've FL sized to start with and trimmed back to 1.75". When next payday comes, I'll invest in some neck sizing dies which will be more gentle on the brass.

 

[Milligan]

Best group was definitely up towards max load in mine. Didn't try anything lower than 25gr so perhaps I should.

What length are you loading these to?
the heavier bullets have a secant ogive so can be loaded quite long and you can get more powder in, if needed.
Not sure which bullet you're using in this line but 25gr of n140 is a high'ish charge for a 69gr at standard length.

Shortening the seating depth can bump pressure, quite dramatically depending where you are on the curve.

 

[ChesterP]

What length are you loading these to?
the heavier bullets have a secant ogive so can be loaded quite long and you can get more powder in, if needed.
Not sure which bullet you're using in this line but 25gr of n140 is a high'ish charge for a 69gr at standard length.

Shortening the seating depth can bump pressure, quite dramatically depending where you are on the curve.

I'm loading to allow for 10 thou jump. First, I determined COAL by measuring first off a closed bolt, then with a bullet placed into the chamber so it was just touching the lands. That measurement was set on a comparator so that I had a base reference for seating depth and I checked also that the seating depth was at a minimum of bullet diameter (which it was for the different bullets I'm loading). That way, I'm comparing all seated bullets off the ogive. I did double check just in case of bolt head variations by fitting a bullet to a dummy fire formed case so that the bullet could be gently pushed back by contact with the lands and extracted the bullet after chambering and checked COAL. I was within 1/1000" of the first measurement so happy with that.

The 69TMKs do have a secant ogive and are loaded quite long (COAL with these is 2.356 inches) and they need to be single fed as a result. I am finding that a "just compressed" charge is around the 24.6 grains when loaded with N140 (case length 1.75") so little point in exceeding that really. I have loads worked up starting at 23.6 and worked up in increments to 24.8 max charge. I don't want to risk bumping pressures hence I stopped increasing charge when I could see (and just feel) that the charge was reaching case-full with those bullets.

I took the starting charge directly from the VV load data manual for the 69g Sierra HPBT which was the closest match to the TMK. All cases were FL sized before starting, then trimmed.