.25-06 vs .270
- Thread starter dpaterson
- Start date
Had a look through all these quite repetitive threads about ‘which calibre’ when comparing what in reality are relatively close performers in terms of energy in the calibre spectrum. I am a willing participant in many of these discussions… so I went back to the old school books and reminded myself of some of the basics which have stayed with me these past 30 years. And the wife reminded me of a couple of my mistakes in the past that nearly resulted in lost animals.
Big Ears I think the comment quoted above is a bit ambiguous. Sorry to pick this one out but I think it sums up the underlying issue with these threads. If I may I would like to suggest that none of the calibres discussed in this thread will stop a stag from running at all if you don't hit him in the spine or the hilar zone, irrespective of range. In my experience stags will run far, 200m even, if shot through the heart and/or liver, particularly if the lungs suffer no damage. They can take off and keep going like an express train far into thick cover before expiring.
As most here know well, in terms of the vitals, the lungs where the complex arterial system lives ('hilar') is the only area that can cause the catastrophic internal bleeding required to stop a stag from running far. He may take off for a short distance – a few metres – but will slow up pretty quick as he loses blood pressure. Often times a solid hilar strike will cause him to stagger, sit at the rear and topple over in a matter of 10-20 seconds. A shot through the chest or shoulder blade is the most reliable hilar shot to take. It doesn't matter if you're using .243, .25-06, .270, .6.5mm, .308, whatever, if you miss this zone, the stag will run. If you want to drop him in his tracks, you can shoot him in the neck with anything from a .222 up, or whatever your legal minimum is.
I made some comments in the photos section about a 12 pointer I shot in April with the .308, off hand in rough steep country in the S Island in the last of the light. He took a step forward just as I pulled the trigger, and instead of hitting the front shoulder blade, the POI was about 2.5" back from the ideal. The shot took out the top half of his heart and much of the liver, there was some minor damage to the rear of the lungs which I was very thankful of because there was just enough blood from the nose to help me track him. He took off like a bat out of hell and it took me over an hour to find him in the dark and I was really really crapping myself that I’d lost him.
All the calibres debated in this thread will work on deer large or small. I go back to our block this weekend for another week and I can guarantee you I won’t see anything but suppressed .243s used on reds by the expert neighbours, who will be culling some young spikers and hunting down a couple of old stags for paying clients before they shed. All wild animals, in tough country, privately owned land and public land. Typical ranges? 200-400m. The lead guide will tell any client who brings a new fancy lightweight magnum to demonstrate that they can hit a dinner plate three times at 400m lying down on a steep slope in mud and gorse before letting him anywhere near the deer.
So I think the conversation is interesting, but maybe missing the point. Some of the calibres mentioned certainly are “more forgiving” than others. More energy = potentially more forgiving. Point of impact, bullet choice, energy are the key variables that will determine how far a stag will run. Hit him in slightly the wrong place with any of the aforementioned calibres and the stag will take off big time. Hit him slightly wrong with a .30 cal or even any of the Win or Rem magnums, and he’ll take off. Hit him badly – liver only, brisket, guts god forgive, and he’ll be gone and you won’t ever find him without a good dog.
There are countless Youtube videos of “successful” stag hunts that clearly show the POI well behind the shoulder. Sometimes the youtuber even slows down the video to ultra slowmo and plays it again and again just so you can really see that the point of impact was poor! And no surprise, the stag is off the line like a Porsche 919.
Select a calibre, any of the above will do, get out there and practice, practice, practice. Not at the range off a bag, but lying in a wet bog in thick cover in the rain with a good wind blowing and brambles in your pants.
deeangeo
Well-Known Member
That's very well pointed out dodgyknees. Nicely put. The POI is absolutely important in determining not just how far red stags may go if not hit correctly, but also hinds & other species.
Engine room impacts without taking the shoulder will almost certainly see the beasties run before expiring.
How far and into what cover/ditch they fall determines the length of search time with or without dogs.
But here we're into shot placement discussion. I and my friends used .243 for many years on reds, roe, fallow etc etc, goat & fox.
We all enjoyed good success especially using the good old Speer 105gn RN bullet - no longer available.
The failure rate at longer ranges to hit perfectly, taking the shoulder and internals in difficult hill conditions sent us looking for improved tools for the job.
So, of the small group of us on our estate we have three 6.5's, two .25's and a 7mm; the 'stopping' ratio,
i.e. Shorter runs after impact, has dramatically improved with searching times being much much shorter.
Now this may mean we picked up our accuracy levels, both short and longer range, but it's no coincidence that the larger cals. we're using whether (6.5/7mm) slow and bigger, or fast and furious (.25-06) have ensured a much easier life in bringing down the reds/sika.
Each to their own in respect of calibre/cartridge combination, but one that does enough damage to stop the quarry as fast as possible is the one that works for me, and just occasionally out on a windy snowy hillside with no cover, & not as close to the quarry as is ideal, I'd rely on my .25 without hesitation.
Engine room impacts without taking the shoulder will almost certainly see the beasties run before expiring.
How far and into what cover/ditch they fall determines the length of search time with or without dogs.
But here we're into shot placement discussion. I and my friends used .243 for many years on reds, roe, fallow etc etc, goat & fox.
We all enjoyed good success especially using the good old Speer 105gn RN bullet - no longer available.
The failure rate at longer ranges to hit perfectly, taking the shoulder and internals in difficult hill conditions sent us looking for improved tools for the job.
So, of the small group of us on our estate we have three 6.5's, two .25's and a 7mm; the 'stopping' ratio,
i.e. Shorter runs after impact, has dramatically improved with searching times being much much shorter.
Now this may mean we picked up our accuracy levels, both short and longer range, but it's no coincidence that the larger cals. we're using whether (6.5/7mm) slow and bigger, or fast and furious (.25-06) have ensured a much easier life in bringing down the reds/sika.
Each to their own in respect of calibre/cartridge combination, but one that does enough damage to stop the quarry as fast as possible is the one that works for me, and just occasionally out on a windy snowy hillside with no cover, & not as close to the quarry as is ideal, I'd rely on my .25 without hesitation.
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All good deenangeo, a good rationale of why you guys have moved up a division or two in the power spectrum. Sorry dpaterson for having dragged this off topic so much... The post above was really me reflecting on a scarey discussion on Monday arvo with a bloke I know in passing over at the neighbours farm, he pitched up to truck out some heifers to his dairy property and saw my .223 in the truck. Turns out he's a shooter too - of sorts - and we effectively had the "which calibre" debate all over again face-to-face which was one hell of an education in biting my bloody tongue I can tell you. And what I learnt was that despite having a 6.5x57 and a new 7mm-08 he is ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED he needs a magnum to drop the deer he shoots badly and get away on him.
He described two recent incidents in the Ureweras where he lost two good "management grade stags" due to what I am interpreting as poor shots. We had the deer anatomy chat and honestly he didn't have a clue, which considering he's a dairy farmer is very concerning. Any he's a reasonable bloke and we've got a plan to get together soon for some practice and he's asked me to take on the rabbits, hares, pigs and goats on his property so alls well that ends well...
I know that a high proportion of the regular posters on here know their stuff from A to Z and thats what attracted me to this forum above others. Sorry if I waffle on or sound high and mighty from time-to-time. What I notice is the high number of guests that browse these topics. Now these might be members who haven't logged in, sure, but if I consider my own browsing habits, I read stuff on other forums all the time - particularly US - when I'm not a member. Some of these folk will likely be very inexperienced and highly impressionable.
What I've noticed since I left the US and Canada and came back to NZ & Aus, is that there's been a shift in younger blokes' attitudes towards "traditional" calibres some as the .222, .243, the .257 Roberts and .25-06, even the .308 to an extent. The .270 is still very popular here, but real or imagined I don't know, for some reason the impression us middle aged types have is that more and more young fellas want the cannons, nothing else will do. So we try and educate them away from going straight from a .22LR to a 7mm RM... And to learn patience and to respect the animal and know how to kill it cleanly. It is, for better or for worse, ridiculously easy to get a firearms licence over here - and once you've got one you walk into the store and walk out with any bolt or semi- you desire, no questions asked.
So this thread - .270 or .25-06 - probably isn't a great example of what I mean, they are both great deer calibres and we do enjoy splitting hairs don't we? But if someone who's a bit clueless takes something worthwhile away from the debate that basically says "up to you, your choice, they all work, just make bloody sure you know how to use it ethically before pointing it at a creature"... then thats a good thing.
He described two recent incidents in the Ureweras where he lost two good "management grade stags" due to what I am interpreting as poor shots. We had the deer anatomy chat and honestly he didn't have a clue, which considering he's a dairy farmer is very concerning. Any he's a reasonable bloke and we've got a plan to get together soon for some practice and he's asked me to take on the rabbits, hares, pigs and goats on his property so alls well that ends well...
I know that a high proportion of the regular posters on here know their stuff from A to Z and thats what attracted me to this forum above others. Sorry if I waffle on or sound high and mighty from time-to-time. What I notice is the high number of guests that browse these topics. Now these might be members who haven't logged in, sure, but if I consider my own browsing habits, I read stuff on other forums all the time - particularly US - when I'm not a member. Some of these folk will likely be very inexperienced and highly impressionable.
What I've noticed since I left the US and Canada and came back to NZ & Aus, is that there's been a shift in younger blokes' attitudes towards "traditional" calibres some as the .222, .243, the .257 Roberts and .25-06, even the .308 to an extent. The .270 is still very popular here, but real or imagined I don't know, for some reason the impression us middle aged types have is that more and more young fellas want the cannons, nothing else will do. So we try and educate them away from going straight from a .22LR to a 7mm RM... And to learn patience and to respect the animal and know how to kill it cleanly. It is, for better or for worse, ridiculously easy to get a firearms licence over here - and once you've got one you walk into the store and walk out with any bolt or semi- you desire, no questions asked.
So this thread - .270 or .25-06 - probably isn't a great example of what I mean, they are both great deer calibres and we do enjoy splitting hairs don't we? But if someone who's a bit clueless takes something worthwhile away from the debate that basically says "up to you, your choice, they all work, just make bloody sure you know how to use it ethically before pointing it at a creature"... then thats a good thing.
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Ive used both 25-06 and 270. I home loaded for the 25-06 and this might be in part why this was far more accurate than the 270 rifles that I have had that I was not allowed to home load for. They both killed deer very well, if anything the 25-06 might have been the one that achieved a higher ratio of bang flops. I would say the following is all important:- bullet placement, bullet design and bullet speed. I think it is best when trying to find a calibre to fit your needs is to first think of the bullet then the case and after that the rifle. One of the key factors is whether you are going to home load or be restricted to factory rounds. I re-barrelled my 25-06 to 6.5-284 I certainly have no regrets doing this. I still use the 270 but if I had the choice then the 6.5 would be the go to rifle
for what its worth, i was under the impression a 270 and a 2506 were both neck sized down 3006, so what everyone is getting worked up about is the difference from a 6mm ( 2506) bullet against a 6-8mm bullet in what is really the same case . if you get a heavy 6mm bullet in a 2506 ( say about 120gn mark) there wont be too much difference in the same weight version in a 270. although at long target type ranges, 1000yards maybe, a 6mm bullet of the same weight would probably be more efficient going through the air (if you used a target bullet) so would retain more energy. it would be pretty academic though as neither are really target rounds. for what its worth i have a 270 , and love it, furthest ever shot 280 meters and dropped deer dead on spot, im not sure a 243 would have done the same.
when did a .25-06 (.257 ) become a 6mm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Triggermortis
Well-Known Member
Technical questSjion for all you experts, if I shoot one deer with a 270 and one with a 25-06, which one Is "deader"
Neither, due to the inaccuracy of the T3 you choose to use you would wound with either cartridge.
Don't be saying that T3, the deer in either case won't be 'dead' they'll be 'managed'.
Both will be equally well 'managed' from the deer's perspective. From the 'managers' perspective, the 25-06 will improve the 'deer managers' fecundity as the calibre makes you irresistible to the opposite sex. The 270 on the other hand rattles the teeth out of your head and makes you smell of cheese, in most cases (though it has to be said, not all) this makes you less fecund.
There are other points of view of course, but I am unanimous in mine.
Triggermortis
Well-Known Member
Good job i shoot a BSA 270 then
Good job i shoot a BSA 270 then
Much better
6.527mm
Correct therefore Bigger than a. 243 ( which was my point) .
Also i shot a 25-06 for 40 odd years which killed the biggest of big Red deer just as quick at range as my .300 Win-Mag
night stalker
Well-Known Member
Been shooting 25-06 for 15 years and love it so Im biased. I use 100 NBT's for roe and 120 nosler partition or Speer for owt bigger also have a great load for Berger 115 VLD but have yet to shoot owt live with it. If your not going to reload then 270 is the way ahead as you should always be able to get hold of a good choice of factory ammo which is not always the case with 25-06. I also have a 30-06 but that's a debate for another day.
Rick
Rick
