.303, good enough to fight a war, why is it not widely used for stalking?

[reiver]

I use a 1908 .303 SMLE /parker-hale sporter for roe and for the odd fox as well. It kills just as well as my .308win Blr and none of the deer or foxes complaned that it was too old a rifle round to be using on them dead is dead.
I use 150 hornady's and 40grs of vhit140 and for target practice out to 300 yards cast boolits and 22grs of 2400 or 175fmj and 39grs of vhit 140. Priv and S&B also make brass and ammo for the .303 . The .303 will still do the job if you give it a go!.
I would like to try it on a wild boar drive sometime to see how it would perform ,fitted with a red dot and with its 10 round mag using 180-220gr bullets i bet it would work very well. A mad minute on the piggys would be fun!!.
As the saying goes "If in doubt apply rule .303" as it covers every thing.

Bob

 

[Brithunter]

Yep looks like Norma has dropped it now but Remington, Federal, Winchester still load it as do PMP of South Africa. Sellier & Bellot load a 150 Grn SP in 303 British and Privi Partizan offer a 150 and 180 grain SP loading

Both PMP and S&B used to be available in the UK I have shot both and it was good ammunition. The problem in the UK seems to be the importers and regulations on importing it.. Nice way of curtailing shooting is to shut off the supply of ammunition.

 

[Orion]

I've heard good things about the .303 - try a variation for one of these anyone?

View attachment 10214

 

[Brithunter]

I've heard good things about the .303 - try a variation for one of these anyone?

View attachment 10214

Ahhh the grand old lady of no-manes land.......

 

[Dalua]

I don't think Federal supply them in belts, though.

 

[jamross65]

I don't know the first thing about the 303 but I was always under the impression the issue in its use on deer in Scotland, was that the legal minimum required for MV was likely to be unattainable from this chambering? I could be completely wrong though...

For all deer of any species - the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.

 

[Dalua]

I don't know the first thing about the 303 but I was always under the impression the issue in its use on deer in Scotland, was that the legal minimum required for MV was likely to be unattainable from this chambering? I could be completely wrong though...

For all deer of any species - the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.

Norma 150 and 180grain loads both had book-value MV above the Scottish minimum. So does the current Federal 150gr load, and I'd imagine that most commercial 150gr loads (maybe not 180gr) would hit the magic figure.

In the 1969 P-H catalogue, Winchester-Western 180gr load has 2540fps, and the Kynoch 150gr has 2700fps. As mentioned, the Kynoch 174gr load has bang-on the magic 2450fps.

 

[jamross65]

Norma 150 and 180grain loads both had book-value MV above the Scottish minimum. So does the current Federal 150gr load, and I'd imagine that most commercial 150gr loads (maybe not 180gr) would hit the magic figure.

In the 1969 P-H catalogue, Winchester-Western 180gr load has 2540fps, and the Kynoch 150gr has 2700fps. As mentioned, the Kynoch 174gr load has bang-on the magic 2450fps.

So in that case, why is it not accepted as a calibre suitable for deer as your figures clearly show that the MV would be fine to fulfill the legislation's requirement?

Something in the back of my mind tells me that when the above legislation changed many years ago, a lot of 303 rifles became 'illegal' overnight and the part of the story that rings a bell, was the comments at the time from stalkers who had been using it for many years after the war and had killed countless deer with them...

 

[Paul at Fechan]

It is just that as an older calibre it has gone out of fashion and the popular choices are a touch more modern now.

 

[Dalua]

Yes, I guess that's about right.
It certainly isn't lack of efficacy for shooting deer, or illegality in Scotland that are the problems.

I think the problems already mentioned, namely magazine and bolt-face suitability for a rimmed cartridge, have effectively killed it as a production rifle cartridge. All the sporting rifles offered in this caliber up to about the end of the '70s were as far as i can see sportised military rifles; and the raw material for producing such rifles, namely cheap ex-military stock, then became unavailable.

 

[digger9523]

I've got a 1917 BSA SMLE No.1 Mk 111* down in Australia that is my baby when I'm down on the cattle stations. It was re barrelled with a Lithgow "Heavy" barrel some years ago and with it I've shot in excess of 200 roos/wallabies (cattle dog food mainly, 2 or 3 a day), several Dingos, about 2 dozen pigs, a ****ed off Taipan and i had to mercy kill an Emu that had tangled itself up in a stock fence.

I got into a mob of pigs once, I'd driven up to check round one of the dams while my mate and his family were off looking at boarding schools, so i was on my own for once. The windscreen was dusty but i spied some likely lumps in a shaded area off to my right. Looked out the drivers side window and there were 5 nice porkers just about to pop smoke. Stretched out the side with my old girl, no mean feet!, and drew a bead on the lead pig as they started off in front of me. Nailed him at about 40 yards through both shoulders, the same shot also drilled his mate who was motoring past behind him. Got out and went for a jog after the other 3 and got one of them about a kilometre away. Went back later on for a Jim Corbett style sit up in an old southern cross windmill tower about 80 yards from the first two pigs. Early evening brought out the mozzies and a big sow came cautiously in, left her at first to see if she had any mates, but i later guessed these were her mates and that I'd just not seen her in the afternoons excitement. She started eating the first two and that was when i nailed her. Walked up to the other one and got one of a pair of Dingoes that were sitting down to feed off it. I was using South African PMC ammunition, 180gn soft point if i remember right. The rifles original open sights are calibrated for the standard Mk VII ammo at 172? gn, so i went for the nearest i could get to it. Got a Central peep/target sight for the rifle as well.

If it's good enough for me, and it's good enough to secure an empire (Which we didn't lose until we took on the 7.62x51!), then surely good old Rule .303 is good enough for deer anywhere? Edward Woodward seemed to think very highly of it anyway! http://youtu.be/Aj8N8Nvv6ys

Incidentally, these people: Target Master Ammunition from HPS load .303 target ammo with 174gn Sierra match kings, which if I'm not mistaken are a HPBT, so could they be classed as deer legal? (Thinking along the loose lines of them being Dum Dum'esque?) I don't know what peoples views are on that, be interesting to find out.

 

[Brithunter]

Until this daft velocity restriction one of the favourite loading for the 303 was the 215 grain RN soft Point which of course did not and does not reach the magic 2450fps being more like 2100-2200fps it was this loading that became illegal over night. Kynoch and Norma also loaded 130 grain bullets in the 303. Amongst my collection is a new box of Norma 130 grain .303 British cartridges.

As for cheap military rifles is was way into the 1990's that during a clear out of MOD places around the country some of which had not been visited for over 20 years that a whole brand new consignment of Lee Enfield No5's were found in the wrap standing on racks. As far as I am aware they were chopped up. In the same depot was found a consignment of brand new Rolls Royce Merlin engines for the MTB's... now you know where the new engines of the Memorial Flight came from. The Nissen hut full of Bedford TK engines was also scrapped. A chap I used to shoot at Bisley worked for the MOD and was involved in this Stock take.

As for the strange bolt face size required by the 303 ...................... yep it's very strange.................... it happens or rather I should say that the magnuc cartridges happen to have the same bolt head size as the old 303 British................... so that argument does not hold water. This is one reason the Americans like the P-14 for conversion to magnums as the bolt face was already the right size.

 

[conibear]

very popular rifle in canada
good for deer ,elk, bear and moose

 

[digitalwildcams]

There are better rounds available ballistically, as a slightly older stalker they were reasonably popular in the 70's, its a rimmed cartridge, and why use an out dated calibre. Plus there are better actions.

 

[Brithunter]

There are better rounds available ballistically, as a slightly older stalker they were reasonably popular in the 70's, its a rimmed cartridge, and why use an out dated calibre. Plus there are better actions.

Yep it's rimmed and we all know they're outdated so scrap them all. No need in the modern world for the 303, 30-30, 7x65R, 7x57R, 9.3x74R, 45/70 etc

As for the Lee Enfield action well I'll bet that a lot would love they're modern rifles to be as smooth feed with as little problems and be as trouble free as the Lee Enfield. Of course it's not as strong as a lot of actions it was never designed to be. It was designed around the 303 cartridge and works excellently with it. The poor reputation for weakness was brought about by idiots overloading it in 7.62x51 to keep bullets super sonic at 1200 yards but for some reason the rifle action got the blame prompting the NRA to insist that they be proofed to magnum pressures .

Plus of course the Lee Enfield was NOT the only rifle chambered for the 303 cartridge. I wonder why Ruger have just made a run of the No1's in 303 British................ so nope there is no market for a rimmed cartridge let along the ancient 303 British .

 

[Paul at Fechan]

like I said fashion, and the 'young guns' want what more modern cartridges offer. The 303 lacks some of the grand sporting heritage of the larger hunting calibres such as the 9.3's and 375 h&h. These have a foothold that will be difficult to shake and while they don't perform to vaminting standards they were never meant to on larger game and dangerous game! The 303 is by all accounts one of the greats in history but it is not capable of the potentials of modern cartridges and so as a functional tool, it is not as technically proficient. If you want a modern flat shooting rifle it will not be for you but if you love heritage and history perhaps it is.

So, demand sets the trend for the manufactuers and 303 isn't a winner in todays market.

 

[Brithunter]

Paul,

Now don;t take this the wrong way but part of the 303 falling out of favour especially in some the best game hunting places in the world is because it was banned from civilian ownership. I believe it's still banned in India and whole swathes of Africa banned it. Not due to it's performance on game but it's use on ordinary folks and the Government by insurgents as they are called today.

 

[Kalahari]

Actually I think, and it is only my opinion, that the reason the SMLE and its successors were so successful as a military rifle was that it had a 10 round magazine, twice that of most of its competitors. I don't think it was the 303 round that did it. If it had been a rimless round with better, stronger lock-up it would have been even more successful.

David.

 

[Brithunter]

Oh you mean like the P-17 rifles.

 

[Dalua]

There are better rounds available ballistically, as a slightly older stalker they were reasonably popular in the 70's, its a rimmed cartridge, and why use an out dated calibre. Plus there are better actions.

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'better ballistically'. I think it is really very similar to my .308.

Also, my other rifle is a 6.5x55, so the answer to 'why use an outdated calibre' might well be 'because it works, and I like it!'