.303, good enough to fight a war, why is it not widely used for stalking?

[Muir]

Brit: The O3-A3 (WWII issue) was made by Remington (I have one) but the 1903's (I'm 99.999% certain) were only from the Springfield Armory. M1's were made everywhere. ~Muir

 

[Brithunter]

Hmmm this was nagging at me so I did a search and found this:-

http://www.bowersweapons.com/US MODEL 1903 RIFLE SERIAL NUMBER RANGES.htm

Rock Island, Smith Corona and Remington all made the Springfield 1903 as well as the Springfield Gorvernment arsenal. Now as I recall the smith a Mr John I'Anson was going to build my 257AI using a Smith Corona action and that was nagging at me. Should have phoned Mike as he would have known off the top of his head as he is a real Springfield nut and has quite a collection of them. Last 03 I shot was his newly acquired on with the cut for the Pedersen device.

 

[Muir]

Those companies made the much later 03A3, not the WWI-vintage 1903. They are two different rifles built in different eras tho often lumped together with the term "1903". At the time all these sub contractors were making the O3A3 the bolt gun was being faded out to gear production to the Garand. Again, a war-time expedient using stamped and welded triggerguards and a very nice rear sight mounted on the rear of the receiver bridge via a dovetail. Many had two groove barrels, which I am fond of.

I have had several Mark 1 Springfields cut for the Pederson Device. They used to be encountered on a regular basis. One time I actually saw a Pederson Device, still in the box. The dealer was asking a 5-digit price. I lived about 8 miles from the Springfield Armory when I was in junior high and highschool. I wanted to work there but it was shut down and turned into a museum when I was about 14. I was crestfallen. I went through the museum many, many times. If anyone ever gets to the States, a trip the Springfield is worth the time.~Muir

 

[Brithunter]

Muir,

I had a internet friend who helped with the conservation of the exhibits at the Springfield museum. His speciality was wood being a cabinet maker.

As for the 1903's check that web site I posted the link to it has the serial number ranges and Rock Island only operated making the 1903's from their introduction in 1903 until production was suspended in 1914 and did not restart until 1917 when the US joined the fray for the First world war. It was Remington and Smith Corona that only made them during WW2. I think the confusion is some think RIA means Remington when in fact it's Rock Island Arsernal.

 

[Muir]

I had forgotten about Rock Island and you are correct, but that was still a US Government owned facility, not a contractor. I am trying to think if i have ever even held a RIA 1903?? I don't think so, and I have seen hundreds of 1903's. Hmmm.....~Muir

 

[Brithunter]

I had forgotten about Rock Island and you are correct, but that was still a US Government owned facility, not a contractor. I am trying to think if i have ever even held a RIA 1903?? I don't think so, and I have seen hundreds of 1903's. Hmmm.....~Muir

Muir, that's OK we know you have been under strain recently .... tis human to forget sometimes and RIA are one of the more rare Springfields. Plenty of the production did not survive the war so the modest production has been whittled down to even less survivors. Being a magpie I still have the correspondence with Mr Smith at Parker-Hale AKA Bremmer Arms and got the file out and looked up the 1903 production on the web to re-fresh the old brain cells . It's daft things about guns/shooting like this that for some reason lodges in my memory ............................................ despite what some may think about it . For a while I had Mike's Springfield books on load to research them back then which helped.

 

[Muir]

It's my prejudice surfacing! I grew up in the Connecticut River valley within miles of the Armory in Springfield. Of course I'd forget Rock Island!~Muir

 

[Triggermortis]

Anyway, according to my grandad (and he used a .303 in anger, 1939-1945)the only good improvement ever to a .303 was when they were bored out and turned into a .410 shotgun

 

[bogtrotter]

So in that case, why is it not accepted as a calibre suitable for deer as your figures clearly show that the MV would be fine to fulfill the legislation's requirement?

Something in the back of my mind tells me that when the above legislation changed many years ago, a lot of 303 rifles became 'illegal' overnight and the part of the story that rings a bell, was the comments at the time from stalkers who had been using it for many years after the war and had killed countless deer with them...

It meets the requirments with bullets up to 180 grns in weight but not the heavier stuff, but very few bullets over 200grns will, know a couple of stalkers who still use 303

 

[bogtrotter]

Yep it's rimmed and we all know they're outdated so scrap them all. No need in the modern world for the 303, 30-30, 7x65R, 7x57R, 9.3x74R, 45/70 etc

As for the Lee Enfield action well I'll bet that a lot would love they're modern rifles to be as smooth feed with as little problems and be as trouble free as the Lee Enfield. Of course it's not as strong as a lot of actions it was never designed to be. It was designed around the 303 cartridge and works excellently with it. The poor reputation for weakness was brought about by idiots overloading it in 7.62x51 to keep bullets super sonic at 1200 yards but for some reason the rifle action got the blame prompting the NRA to insist that they be proofed to magnum pressures .

Plus of course the Lee Enfield was NOT the only rifle chambered for the 303 cartridge. I wonder why Ruger have just made a run of the No1's in 303 British................ so nope there is no market for a rimmed cartridge let along the ancient 303 British .

OF course its out dated and should be scrapped along with most other calibres, apart from 6.5x55 and .338 Lapua that is

 

[Brithunter]

OF course its out dated and should be scrapped along with most other calibres, apart from 6.5x55 and .338 Lapua that is

I know some have trouble reading so will enlarge that it just for bogtrotter who seems to be having trouble reading this:-

"Yep it's rimmed and we all know they're outdated so scrap them all. No need in the modern world for the 303, 30-30, 7x65R, 7x57R, 9.3x74R, 45/70 etc"


There is that better?

 

[reiver]

I really could not give a flying feck what any one else thinks about my .303 being out dated it still puts meat on the table.
Which for a rifle built in 1908 can not be to bad can it?

 

[bogtrotter]

Brit has got the wrong end of the stick, or maybe its just my sense of humour, I was having a tongue in cheek go as it does not seem to matter what calibre is talked about somebody will say 6.5x 55 is better.


I know 303 is RIMMED


Some people need a sense of humour transplant.

 

[Muir]

Anyway, according to my grandad (and he used a .303 in anger, 1939-1945)the only good improvement ever to a .303 was when they were bored out and turned into a .410 shotgun

I'll bet there his dissatisfaction was largely due to the service ammo of the day. Lee's are very accurate with good quality ammunition. I have shot at least a hundred of them and never found one I couldn't make shoot. My BSA Sporting rifle has "brown and round" rifling for the first 4" of the barrel yet will shoot the Winchester 180 grain factory ammo or the Hornady 174 grain RN into an inch at 50M with open sights.~Muir

 

[Muir]

I really could not give a flying feck what any one else thinks about my .303 being out dated it still puts meat on the table.
Which for a rifle built in 1908 can not be to bad can it?

I'm curious: Who made your 1908?? I have a 1906 Sparkbrook and a 1914 LSA that are two of my favorite Enfields. I am always curious about pre-WWI Enfields. ~Muir

 

[reiver]

I'm curious: Who made your 1908?? I have a 1906 Sparkbrook and a 1914 LSA that are two of my favorite Enfields. I am always curious about pre-WWI Enfields. ~Muir

my No1 mk111 Smle was made by BSA and converted to a sporter around the 1960's by Parker-Hale who fitted a new Barrel and taped the side of the receiver for a scope mount.

Bob

 

[Brithunter]

my No1 mk111 Smle was made by BSA and converted to a sporter around the 1960's by Parker-Hale who fitted a new Barrel and taped the side of the receiver for a scope mount.

Bob

Ahhh now if you look for the Birmingham Private View mark in the proof marking we will be able to tell when P-H did the conversion. You say the side of the receiver? has it got three holes i a line for a mount like this?:-

and did they leave the charger guide in place? Just trying to determine which P-H model you have Although this is a No4 conversion the stocking is the same style as that used on the same model of the No Mk111:-

This is the Supreme. Please excuse the ratty recoil pad it came fitted with . I have since had a ribbed Rubber BSA butt plate fitted. The P-H#s usually had a hard plastic type butt plate but I could not locate one and had this BSA one on hand which was over size so could be ground down to fit the butt properly. Also have the scope mounts for this on hand .

 

[Brithunter]

Brit has got the wrong end of the stick, or maybe its just my sense of humour, I was having a tongue in cheek go as it does not seem to matter what calibre is talked about somebody will say 6.5x 55 is better.


I know 303 is RIMMED


Some people need a sense of humour transplant.

Ahhhhh well although I do have a 6.5x55, only one now as sold one to make room for the 25-06 1200C, I suppose I don't actually have a favourite cartridge as I am partial to quite a few of them. Of course I have a soft spot for the .270 Winchester a my first new rifle was the BSA CF2 Stuzen so chambered, the first rifle was a P-H No1 Mk111 Supreme built on a BSA 1916 action, it would have been the other way round but I didn't ask in F.A. Anderson's about the 270 and was checking the mag adverts. Oh had looked on their racks but this NEW BSA was sat in a stock room upstairs .

It cost me £400 with P-H RAHS3 rings, a Nikko Sterling 4-12x40AO scope, gunslip, P-H yellow rod with brush, jag, Bottle of 009, box of P-H 270 patches, sling and 40 rnds of ammo these being 20 of 150 Grn Norma and 20 of 130 grn RWS T-Mantle. The price on the RWS box was £18:90 ....................... damn that was expensive stuff. Still have receipt and it took me a few weeks to pay it off so I could collect. The P-H Supreme cost £125 with the Nikko Sterling 4x32 Special Sporting scope already fitted. It was in his advert in Guns review. Should have the receipt for that one too if I look hard enough. It came for Russel Walkier (spelling) at Saffron Waldron. Oh dear the memory is failing as I cannot sort out what car I had at the time I know I visited Russel's shop several times and brought two 303 rifles from him several years apart the second being a P-14 that P-H converted to light sport/target configuration and one of those visits I was driving the old White Cortinia Mk3 GXL but the other visit nope cannot recall the car at all .

Hmm perhaps I need a Scottish translator on this here PC?

 

[reiver]

Hi Brit

My rifle does have a scope mount similar to the one in your photo but the top rail is groved for its full length ( have swaped this for a Weaver rail) my rifle also has a extra hole just back from the scope mount bracket that was for some type of target peep sight?. The gun also came with a side scope mount that had a adjuster wheel on the side to add minutes to the elervation (cant ) on the scope rail for longer range shooting.
Yes my rifle has the charger guide cut off the stock is simlar to yours but it has a black forend tip with white spacer on it

 

[Brithunter]

Ok looking in my P-H #68 catalogue it seems you have a .303 Custom. never got the chance to handle one of those as yet . In fact I have only seen photos of them never having come across on myself. Hmmm the hole may have been from where they removed the charger bridge as they were pinned to the receiver. P-H did make a #16 sight to fit the No1 Enfields. (16F) they also made the P-H #18 Neta (#18D) to fit the No1 Enfield rifles.