375H&H - Good reason and UK use?

[Orion]

Secondly, the Guidance [p.124] does mention .375 H&H, but only as suitable for dangerous game. Having read your post #40 I can see now where licensing are coming from. According to the HOG table, deer & boar aren’t a valid primary use for a .375 but may of course be granted as AOLQ. Some .375 users obviously have been apart from you, but where exactly does it say this is a right?

You shouldn’t read the HOG table in isolation; as it states in the header to it:

“Paragraphs 13.9 and 13.16-13.18 should be read in conjunction with this table.”

13.9 A certificate holder may shoot any quarry that is lawful (where they are authorised to shoot). Whilst guidance is provided, it is the responsibility of the shooter and the shooting community to know what calibre is suitable for which quarry, and when certain quarry is lawful (including the need to obtain or rely upon a licence from the relevant licensing authority to permit the shooting of protected species). Once initial “good reason” has been established for the possession of a firearm, there is no requirement for “good reason” to be demonstrated for additional quarry species or amendments providing the firearms are not underpowered for the species (see also paragraph 13.17). A cartridge should be capable of achieving a humane kill, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure that any excess energy will be absorbed by the backstop. The “any other lawful quarry” condition (which also covers protected species that the certificate holder is licensed to shoot) should be applied. If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions imposed on the individual’s firearm certificate.

13.16 - 13.17 are worth reading but 13.18 provides a compelling rationale:

13.18 ‘Yes’ indicates that the calibre is suitable for the purpose, and pursuit of such quarry would normally be a “good reason” to possess such a rifle. ‘No’ indicates that the calibre and muzzle energy is unsuitable, unlawful or inhumane, and pursuit of such a quarry would not therefore be a “good reason” to possess such a rifle. This, however, should not exclude the use of a larger or more powerful firearm, for which “good reason” has been established, to shoot smaller quarry (see 13.9).

 

[SOE]

Get a 45-70 Gov it can drop a Grizzly /Black Bear......great on boar too

 

[Selous]

I had a meeting with the FEO today. 338 granted for target but significant resistance for use on deer. There was an awkward silence when the above passages were produced as to me. Watch this space

 

[zambezi]

According to the HOG table, deer & boar aren’t a valid primary use for a .375 but may of course be granted as AOLQ. Some .375 users obviously have been apart from you, but where exactly does it say this is a right?

Adding to Orion's excerpts from the HOG, and dovetailing with what you have stated: Domestic AOLQ status for .375 once good reason is shown is a pretty clear conclusion when you consider the wording of 13.37 and 13.9. [I have no idea where the term "right" comes into this, or any aspect of firearms licencing. Sadly, we do not have the equivalent of the 2nd amendment. But appropriate application of the Home Office Guidelines on Firearms Licencing should deliver right decisions. Is that what you meant?]

Orion has already extracted the 13.9 entry above, but I repeat here for emphasis: "If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions imposed on the individual’s firearm certificate "

And from 13.37 we have: "Some rifles intended for antelope and other plains game may also be suitable for deer, boar or other quarry shooting in this country. Once initial “good reason” has been established for a rifle in shooting “dangerous game”, it may also be considered for shooting the larger deer species and boar in Britain. Expanding ammunition may (must in the case of deer) also be authorised for an applicant whosecertificate allows for the rifle also to be used for shooting deer or boar in Britain. "

 

[zambezi]

Was expanding not taken off section 5,if so why the stipulation on expanding

YES. In the Policing and Crime Act 2017 section 129.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/pdfs/ukpga_20170003_en.pdf

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/PC-FAQs.pdf

Firearms Law – Policing and Crime Act Q&A

Read the Countryside Alliance latest news and blogs about hunting, shooting, fishing and rural communities

www.countryside-alliance.org

I mean wether it’s expanding or not it’s still going to kill in the wrong hands

Exactly. And the author of the HOG understood that basic principle and wrote those guidelines with that fundamental truth running through it. It distills to this: The HOG requires that shooters are competent with and have a demonstrated need for firearms. It does not look to hamper their usage of any licenced firearm.

In that regard it follows other Commonwealth legislation such as you will find in NZ. I.e. it is the hunter who is licenced/vetted. Thereafter they are trusted to buy and use the most appropriate firearm in a safe way. Re-read the HOG passages above. No different.

UK FLOs seem staffed by those for whom shooting and ballistics are unfathomable. As lay folk, big numbers mean more dangerous, right? If we rein those in we are making things safer, right?

The reality is as you have stated: even the smallest calibre is dangerous in the wrong hands. And the reverse is also true: a .375 [akin to the European equivalent, the 9.3mm] is a supremely appropriate choice for stopping big boar humanely [HOG 13.9]. In the UK, where public and private lands lie contiguous in a mixed quilt-work, it is wise to use enough gun to prevent "runners". A 250kg boar wounded with a smaller calibre poses a huge threat to public safety if it were to leave private land. That same boar would have been stopped by the use of a more appropriate calibre.

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

I just applied for a .375 on my renewal fingers crossed

 

[MAH]

I would need it conditioned for zeroing and practice for load development

I had an ice, Googling one night I saw and advert for a 378 Weatherby.
It was a little rash but I wanted it.
As I am a member of a full bore out door, 1200yr range I made my variation for target shooting.

I do enjoy using it, but just a few rounds at a time.

If you're a member of a suitable club, you could do the same, then add a variation, to enable your African trip.

 

[Dorset Shakari]

Interested to hear how you get on Zambesi.

I have a 375 for deer, boar and AOLQ, open certificate, from Avon & Somerset. Just moved to Dorset however, and I believe they follow the D&C policies.

 

[Bukshot]

D&C are not the only ones to refuse 300WM and above for UK deer

Thames Valley have also started doing the same under a change of guard at TVP’s FL department. Their senior FLO (a chap by the name of Greg Coombes) has instigated a policy to refuse 300WM and above for UK deer unless the land where you want to shoot it is vetted and cleared for its use by either TVP or the local constabulary and the named land is then entered on the FAC as s condition.

Tried all the arguments/debates with the FEO, no luck. I’m convinced he doesn’t understand ballistics or the application of the HO guidelines and passes it off as ‘only following orders’. Plus I can’t get a direct line to discuss this with Greg Coombes personally.

BASC are now investigating this and have demanded a copy of TVP’s ‘policy’ but nothing had been issued the last time I checked.

 

[Alistair]

I had an ice, Googling one night I saw and advert for a 378 Weatherby.
It was a little rash but I wanted it.
As I am a member of a full bore out door, 1200yr range I made my variation for target shooting.

I do enjoy using it, but just a few rounds at a time.

If you're a member of a suitable club, you could do the same, then add a variation, to enable your African trip.

Thaks for the tip!

It's been a few years since I started the thread and I did indeed get my .375H&H as desired, with conditions including both use abroad plus zeroing and range use in the UK.

More recently again, I sold up and moved to the US, so happily any and all FEO related difficulties are no longer my problem.

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

Thaks for the tip!

It's been a few years since I started the thread and I did indeed get my .375H&H as desired, with conditions including both use abroad plus zeroing and range use in the UK.

More recently again, I sold up and moved to the US, so happily any and all FEO related difficulties are no longer my problem.

Where in the states. ? Did you take any guns with you ?

 

[Namman]

I had an ice, Googling one night I saw and advert for a 378 Weatherby.
It was a little rash but I wanted it.
As I am a member of a full bore out door, 1200yr range I made my variation for target shooting.

I do enjoy using it, but just a few rounds at a time.

If you're a member of a suitable club, you could do the same, then add a variation, to enable your African trip.

I didn't realise that UK Police had jurisdiction abroad!

 

[Namman]

D&C are not the only ones to refuse 300WM and above for UK deer

Thames Valley have also started doing the same under a change of guard at TVP’s FL department. Their senior FLO (a chap by the name of Greg Coombes) has instigated a policy to refuse 300WM and above for UK deer unless the land where you want to shoot it is vetted and cleared for its use by either TVP or the local constabulary and the named land is then entered on the FAC as s condition.

Tried all the arguments/debates with the FEO, no luck. I’m convinced he doesn’t understand ballistics or the application of the HO guidelines and passes it off as ‘only following orders’. Plus I can’t get a direct line to discuss this with Greg Coombes personally.

BASC are now investigating this and have demanded a copy of TVP’s ‘policy’ but nothing had been issued the last time I checked.

I have had .375 rifles for deer stalking for nearly 40 years. Last February on renewal it was removed and conditioned for target shooting only.
It has taken more than 6 months of letter writing,and also involving BASC , The Freedom of Information Act and a request for Personal information disclosure to do with all reports, meetings etc with my renewal. I regularly travel to Africa to hunt and fully comply with HOG.
It was granted last month.
I am still waiting to see on what grounds it was removed.
The FOI showed that 6 others in the Force area had 375s for stalking including my syndicate partner who had his 375 conditioned for stalking on the same land. It was his first such grant! Different FEO.
There were 5 others with calibres up to .45 /70 authorised for stalking.
What a pointless exercise in bureaucracy .

 

[Alistair]

Where in the states. ? Did you take any guns with you ?

Wisconsin.

And no, I didn't take any of my guns along. It seemed rather akin to taking coal to Newcastle, plus with the prices over here being what they are, it's not worth it economically either.

 

[Dorset Shakari]

I have had .375 rifles for deer stalking for nearly 40 years. Last February on renewal it was removed and conditioned for target shooting only.
It has taken more than 6 months of letter writing,and also involving BASC , The Freedom of Information Act and a request for Personal information disclosure to do with all reports, meetings etc with my renewal. I regularly travel to Africa to hunt and fully comply with HOG.
It was granted last month.
I am still waiting to see on what grounds it was removed.
The FOI showed that 6 others in the Force area had 375s for stalking including my syndicate partner who had his 375 conditioned for stalking on the same land. It was his first such grant! Different FEO.
There were 5 others with calibres up to .45 /70 authorised for stalking.
What a pointless exercise in bureaucracy .

What force was that with Namman?

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

Wisconsin.

And no, I didn't take any of my guns along. It seemed rather akin to taking coal to Newcastle, plus with the prices over here being what they are, it's not worth it economically either.

Got a few of my guns I wanna take to the states as I have emotional attachment to them.

 

[BigMoe]

My reason was my gun club holds big bore rifle competitions every month...which they did and i had a clubs shooting calender and showed it to my FAO, and got it straight away!

 

[Heym SR20]

This thread further illustrates what a complete and utter mess firearms licencing actually is. There is legislation and then clear home office guidance. We live in a country where government is claiming to have control, but everything seems totally open to local interpretation based on whatever somebody had for b’fast.

Now in the greater scheme of things firearms licencing is not that important an issue. But heaven forbid if government and its agencies had a similar way of working in slightly more important matters like the Economy, Health, International Relations, National infrastructure, or even little things like wellfare, jurisprudence or climate change.

 

[User00040]

This thread further illustrates what a complete and utter mess firearms licencing actually is. There is legislation and then clear home office guidance. We live in a country where government is claiming to have control, but everything seems totally open to local interpretation based on whatever somebody had for b’fast.

Now in the greater scheme of things firearms licencing is not that important an issue. But heaven forbid if government and its agencies had a similar way of working in slightly more important matters like the Economy, Health, International Relations, National infrastructure, or even little things like wellfare, jurisprudence or climate change.

Little Napoleons everywhere...

 

[Robbo46]

D&C are not the only ones to refuse 300WM and above for UK deer

Thames Valley have also started doing the same under a change of guard at TVP’s FL department. Their senior FLO (a chap by the name of Greg Coombes) has instigated a policy to refuse 300WM and above for UK deer unless the land where you want to shoot it is vetted and cleared for its use by either TVP or the local constabulary and the named land is then entered on the FAC as s condition.

Tried all the arguments/debates with the FEO, no luck. I’m convinced he doesn’t understand ballistics or the application of the HO guidelines and passes it off as ‘only following orders’. Plus I can’t get a direct line to discuss this with Greg Coombes personally.

BASC are now investigating this and have demanded a copy of TVP’s ‘policy’ but nothing had been issued the last time I checked.

Hi Tuco,
Any success or update on this? Just in renewal with TVP also and seems they won't renew .300 winmag for reasons you've outlined, currently trying to work out options to keep it and be able to use it
Thanks
Robbo