44-40?

A mate reckons he has had his 44-40 cleared for deer.
I’m not sure if it’s up for the job and reluctant to let him use on my ground.
Its and under leaver with open sights. He had it ages and only used it for targets untill now.
I’ll probably tell him he has to bring his .308
Do you guys reckon it will make deer legal?
 
I cannot address legality, only the lethality.A nephew uses his 1893 Marlin .44-40 in Maine on large whitetail deer
 
Some .44-40 loads may achieve the required energy levels for small deer but would fall well short of the required 1700ft/lb for most deer species. I think that your friend may be mistaken in his belief that he has the necessary authority on his FAC.
Some years ago I had a .44mag that was authorised for deer stalking but even that cartridge would only just make the required energy levels with certain loads. If I remember right it needed to fire a 200grn bullet at 2,000 fps or thereabouts to just get over the 1700ft/lb mark. The .44mag would easily achieve the lesser requirements for small deer.
 
Once upon a time there was a US factory 'high-power' 200gn JSP load for the cartridge for use only in Winchester 1892 or later rifles and which was rated at around 1,900 fps. The standard load was around 1,200 fps IIRC. According to people like Ken Waters, the 1,900 fps loading was as hot as you'd ever want to go with handloads and in fact a bit too high as brass only lasted a firing or three. Even it fails to achieve 1,700 ft/lb ME.

Ken Waters said the 'high power' loading was withdrawn many, many decades ago for the usual problem when there are weak and not quite so weak firearms around. No matter what you put on the carton some buyers are either illiterate and can't read them, or more likely think they can ignore the warning. Waters said the load wrecked a large number of old single-action revolvers before it was withdrawn.
 
Once upon a time there was a US factory 'high-power' 200gn JSP load for the cartridge for use only in Winchester 1892 or later rifles and which was rated at around 1,900 fps. The standard load was around 1,200 fps IIRC. According to people like Ken Waters, the 1,900 fps loading was as hot as you'd ever want to go with handloads and in fact a bit too high as brass only lasted a firing or three. Even it fails to achieve 1,700 ft/lb ME.

Ken Waters said the 'high power' loading was withdrawn many, many decades ago for the usual problem when there are weak and not quite so weak firearms around. No matter what you put on the carton some buyers are either illiterate and can't read them, or more likely think they can ignore the warning. Waters said the load wrecked a large number of old single-action revolvers before it was withdrawn.
This is ot,but this young lady was hunting with Ken Waters, using one of his creations (7-30 Waters improved) when she shot this Russian boar. (450lbs).
ken.
 
As has been said, I don’t think getting 1000ft-lbs would be an issue so he may have it for the smaller two species but I really think that 1700ft-lbs is a tad optimistic.
 
From a rough and ready messing around with Quickload it seems possible to achieve 1700 ft/lb ME but I'm not sure I would be wanting to be holding that rifle when it's shot! 1,000 ft/lb is not too difficult to achieve though. OTOH, a .44 Remington Magnum looks to be able to achieve 1,700 ft/lb without excessive effort. A 200 grain bullet in front of 23 grains of Alliant 2400 from a 22 inch barrel looks to achieve 2027 fps giving 1824 ft/lbs with 32326 psi chamber pressure, which is manageable.
 
As has been said, I don’t think getting 1000ft-lbs would be an issue so he may have it for the smaller two species but I really think that 1700ft-lbs is a tad optimistic.
Most people have never seen a .44/40 round as it dates from 1873. It took me several years of collecting to find factory ammunition for this antique (and .38/40 too) so I do know what it’s in the package.

The quotes on here for the wondrous performance from this cartridge seem to come from the web. Forgive the scepticism but this is twice what the factory loads can do.

To achieve 1,000 FPE even for shooting Muntjac/CWD needs an MV of 1500 FPS with a 200gr bullet.The .44-40 uses a .428” bullet so we’re talking cast-lead only. JSP or JHP bullets (which are still Section 5) in this diameter aren’t generally around in the UK & would be a severe test at such velocities for the modern Marlins.

I think the last word on this comes from the latest Speer #14 Manual (as #13). Speer don’t make a jacketed bullet for it at all, but do molds. For the cowboy action fans they used cast 200gr in a 24” Universal Receiver to wring the maximum performance from this round.

The best they could get in the lab was 1347 FPS (800 FPE) & said any lever-action carbine would deliver 50-75 FPS (750 FPE). Using the Speer tables their cast bullet (BCF 0.13) driven at 1300 FPS drops 5.3” and loses 277 FPS at 100yds (so is down to only 450 FPE).

 
From a rough and ready messing around with Quickload it seems possible to achieve 1700 ft/lb ME but I'm not sure I would be wanting to be holding that rifle when it's shot! 1,000 ft/lb is not too difficult to achieve though. OTOH, a .44 Remington Magnum looks to be able to achieve 1,700 ft/lb without excessive effort. A 200 grain bullet in front of 23 grains of Alliant 2400 from a 22 inch barrel looks to achieve 2027 fps giving 1824 ft/lbs with 32326 psi chamber pressure, which is manageable.

Yes, .44 mag will make 1700 fpe out of a 20" barrel. You need to go for lighter bullets, something like 200gr Hornady XTP and 210gr Sierra JHC with H110 - which is contrary to what most people think of as hunting loads in .44 mag lever actions which tend to be 240gr upwards but you need the speed for the 1700 fpe (Hodgon conveniently give pistol and rifle ballistics for 44 mag and 357 on their website... wish other manufactures did the same!)

ATB,

Scrummy
 
I did have, at one time, a Winchester '94 in .44 Magnum conditioned for deer. Don't forget that the smaller deer, muntjac and CWD, aren't subject to the 1,700 ft/lb rule but to a lesser ME requirement, 1,000 ft/lb. I'd see no problem with either .44 Magnum or .44-40 or even .38-40 for muntjac.
 
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I did have, at one time, a Winchester '94 in .44 Magnum conditioned for deer. Don't forget that the smaller deer, muntjac and CWD, aren't subject to the 1,700 ft/lb rule but to a lesser ME requirement, 1,000 ft/lb. I'd see no problem with either .44 Magnum or .44-40 or even .38-40 for muntjac.

True, but handy to have a legal rifle if a roe or fallow steps out
 
Most people have never seen a .44/40 round as it dates from 1873. It took me several years of collecting to find factory ammunition for this antique (and .38/40 too) so I do know what it’s in the package.

The quotes on here for the wondrous performance from this cartridge seem to come from the web. Forgive the scepticism but this is twice what the factory loads can do.

To achieve 1,000 FPE even for shooting Muntjac/CWD needs an MV of 1500 FPS with a 200gr bullet.The .44-40 uses a .428” bullet so we’re talking cast-lead only. JSP or JHP bullets (which are still Section 5) in this diameter aren’t generally around in the UK & would be a severe test at such velocities for the modern Marlins.

I think the last word on this comes from the latest Speer #14 Manual (as #13). Speer don’t make a jacketed bullet for it at all, but do molds. For the cowboy action fans they used cast 200gr in a 24” Universal Receiver to wring the maximum performance from this round.

The best they could get in the lab was 1347 FPS (800 FPE) & said any lever-action carbine would deliver 50-75 FPS (750 FPE). Using the Speer tables their cast bullet (BCF 0.13) driven at 1300 FPS drops 5.3” and loses 277 FPS at 100yds (so is down to only 450 FPE).


Does it matter if the bullets are section 5 or not? Even if they were available it’s no real issue. It would also be easy to use 44 Magnum bullets with a very very small sizing.

I completely see what you mean regards the energy available. Hodgdon list loads which give 200gr@1000-1100fps at under 13ksi, in a modern rifle (such as the ones which are chambered in 44 mag also) with brass that can handle it there is no reason it couldn’t make 1000 ft-lbs. This of course is beyond book levels and is completely at the owners risk but is no different to 45 Colt +p or even loading modern 8x57 rifles to CIP levels (56ksi) rather than SAAMI levels (35ksi).
Again it would be at the users risk but just because you or I wouldn’t do it doesn’t mean it isn’t perfectly possible and safe, so I stand by my “I don’t think getting 1000ft-lbs would be an issue” statement.
 
I completely see what you mean regards the energy available. Hodgdon list loads which give 200gr@1000-1100fps at under 13ksi, in a modern rifle (such as the ones which are chambered in 44 mag also) with brass that can handle it there is no reason it couldn’t make 1000 ft-lbs. This of course is beyond book levels and is completely at the owners risk but is no different to 45 Colt +p or even loading modern 8x57 rifles to CIP levels (56ksi) rather than SAAMI levels (35ksi).

I looked out the old Ken Waters 'Handloader Magazine' article on the 44-40. The original BP and early smokeless loads in 'balloon head' form cases produced 10-12,000 psi for around 1,300 fps with a 200gn bullet in a 24-inch barrel Winchester M1873, M1892 or Marlin 94. Waters found that any load that exceeded those MVs / pressures in this type of case saw such massive case-body expansion that the case was scrap. For starters with the body expanded almost to the edge of the rim, it was impossible to fit a fired case into the press shellholder.

The later (now normal form) case with a solid case-head is much stronger, but is still a very weak case compared to that of other designs. The special Winchester High Velocity (WHV) load I mentioned previously for 1892/1894 or later type rifles actually produced a lower MV than my memory said, some 1,595 fps with a 200gn JSP, which Messrs Whelen and Mattern estimated produced around 20-21,000 psi pressure.

Waters found that even with today's brass and powders, MVs equivalent to the WHV is as much as the cartridge will happily accept, in fact is the absolute maximum, and with some combinations a bit too high. Cases loaded to that performance level saw excessive expansion in two Winchester 92s used for testing - a rifle and 20-inch barrel carbine model - and depending on the make of die tended to be over-sized. Result, very short case life, in particular a sharp ridge in the upper case-walls that very quickly developed into a separation in two, maximum three firings and sizings.

One cannot use the 44 Remington Magnum as a guide in this case. Unlike many older cartridges with restricted maximum pressures and loads such as the 6.5X55mm which are dictated by vintage rifle action strengths, in this model it is the case not the firearm that is the weakest link. The 44 Rem Mag is in a completely different pressure class level loaded to 40,000 psi in factory ammunition and its cases are designed to safely accept these pressures. The 44-40 is obviously at its limit at around half that. (Having loaded both cartridges for leverguns many years back, I know very well how light the 44-40 case is compared to the similar size 44 Magnum, and how thin its wall are. Starline cases picked up large mouth indentations as they bounced off the chamber and action edges in being ejected from a repro M1892 Winchester.)

Waters' rifle loads are peppered with warnings such as 'MAXIMUM load - CAUTION', and 'DANGER - do NOT use'. It appears that around 1,650 fps is just available with careful loading, so whilst the 1,000 ft/lb ME performance level isn't impossible, it is at the top end of the available performance range and requires both very careful load development and great care in inspecting cases and being willing to scrap them after little use.

Incidentally, I'm puzzled as to why people are referring to 0.428" JSPs as 'Section 5'. The only bullets still in this category are those that only have pistol applications. Not only is the 44-40 originally a rifle cartridge, but under the status quo ante which we have now returned to, the pre-Dunblane law, those calibres / cartridges such as 357 and 44 Magnum which are primarily handgun numbers but with a secondary rifle use were treated as being in the latter category.
 
no Muntjac or Cwd in Cornwall, if I let him he’d be stalking roe or maybe red
i would like to see him shoot some paper with it first.

Up to you. I think it'll be fine accuracy-wise (subject to the operator). Most lever actions I've seen aren't exactly precision tools, but a 3-4" 5 shot group at 100 with open sights is attainable, and this, or better, should be fairly 'standard' with an optic fitted. 'Minute of deer', for woodland at least, no worries.

Only real issue is the legality. It'll do the job, Americans use loads of these pistol type carbines for deer with good results, it's just a question of energy levels for our legislation. If he's got the appropriate conditions, and you trust his claim for 1000ftlb or even 1700ftlb at the muzzle, then crack on I reckon. That said, I'm quite taken with this whole pistol calibre carbine woods gun concept myself, so...
 
This is ot,but this young lady was hunting with Ken Waters, using one of his creations (7-30 Waters improved) when she shot this Russian boar. (450lbs).
ken.

I like that pistol. Those Contenders were a really neat gun, I had one in 223. The 7-30 Waters, 30 Herret and 357 Herret were all the rage when I was growing up.

Our Whitetail's are around 150 pounds average. The 44 Magnum was a hammer under 100 yards. Ruger made a Carbine that looked like a 10/22, back in the day a few woods hunters carried them. Marlin made a Lever Action 357 Magnum that got the job done also.
 
Our Whitetail's are around 150 pounds average. The 44 Magnum was a hammer under 100 yards. Ruger made a Carbine that looked like a 10/22, back in the day a few woods hunters carried them. Marlin made a Lever Action 357 Magnum that got the job done also.

Semi-auto 44 carbine? I remember shooting one pre the 1988 Hungerford shooting and subsequent ban on this type of rifle here. A guy would bring one to the range and asked if I'd like three or four shots through it - which I naturally accepted. My previous experience of rifles firing pistol cartridges had been they were nice and mild so I didn't hold the little rifle too tight. Big mistake - the buttstock came up and smacked me hard on the cheekbone, like big dark bruise hard!

I subsequently learned this was the rifle club idiot, the guy who always wants maximum loads plus a bit more powder crammed in. My own fault though - I'd already watched it scatter fired brass out yards rather than feet out of the ejection port. (Talk about well used and battered too when you looked at his cases - Maybe I was lucky just to collect a bruise not a bit of Ruger action in my face!)
 
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