5 Year old GSD

[Dakaras]

Hi folks

It looks like I may be taking on an ex MOD German Shepherd Dog. Long story short my eldest daughters boyfriend is a MOD plod and is this dogs handler.

The shame of it is he is a cracking dog in many respects but for some reason best known only to himself he has a massive fear of shiny slippery floors when working, wierdly he is fine on them away from work training excercises.

If he doesnt shape up in the next few weeks then its back to the Army and Im told its likely he will be put down, apparently the Army wont let anyone other than a handler take them due to the training in restraint they receive and if he is no good to MOD police he is no good to the army.

I cant stand to see a healthy 5 year old dog put down, so will take him on if thats his only option. (The handler will tell MODs he is taking him)

So given that has no fear of guns (well MP7s and handguns anyway) would 5 years old be too old to train him up a a deer dog? Im thinking it should just be an extention of the seeking work he is already doing but Id be gratefull from input from those more experianced than me (pretty much everyone!)

Thanks D

 

[JC275]

As long as you don't get yourself or the handler into trouble then I think that it is great that you are willing to take him on. How it works out will all depend on the bond that forms between you and the dog. I hate to see a healthy dog destroyed, in my opinion, the only reason that this is ever acceptable is when a dog shows uncontrolable aggression to people. Good luck with it. JC

 

[Gazza]

A difficult one this as I can understand your feelings regarding the dog but I would be careful. Dogs that have been trained in restraint or attack have been trained using different triggers to respond. Unless you are very much aware of how this dog has been trained and you are in a position to deal with that, this type of dog can be a danger. MOD dogs are trained as patrol/guarding dogs. That is exactly why the army would have this dog destroyed rather than it be given to somebody as a pet. This is doubly so in your case because if this dog restrained/attacked the wrong person and it came out that your daughters boyfriend had told porkies................

A GSD at 5 is not too old to learn "new tricks" Shepherds make good tracking dogs and have found their niche as a dual purpose tracker/man stopper with the Police/MOD/Army. I can see no reason why a 5 year old shepherd cannot be trained as a deer dog but I would give very serious consideration to my first paragraph.

 

[jimbo123p]

Would tend to agree with Gazza. Having worked with MOD dogs it may not work as a deer dog. The dogs were all close quarter, lead handled. Now you send the dog off lead to track a wounded deer. What is to say how it would react to finding someone in the wood and that person goes defensive at an approach from an GSD. While sympathising with the dog I would say stay clear. The bond between S_IN_L may be strong but to buck the system is to invite trouble.
Jim

 

[Dakaras]

Ok taken that onboard chaps, and you are correct I let my frustration at a potentialy young dog been destroyed cloud my judgement somewhat, I shall review my position based on that and keep you informed.

Thank you

 

[karbon77]

take the dog,even if you don't train it up as a deer dog,i don't think you will regret it,he'll be part of the family before you know whats going on,and best pal in the world!!atb

 

[Caberhill]

It is hard to see the reason why when you know the dog first hand. But honestly this process is done for a reason and that reason is due to the uncertainty of the dog’s behavior once under domestic ownership and out of daily trainning. From my time in the forces I am aware that these dogs have to requalify every so often and have to be able to stop an attack on the first command. What if the dog retains this behaviour but losses the respect of your command? What if it was a children playing in the woods? If you get caught out too the disciplinary action for the plod would be substantial to say the least.





Cheers

Ali

 

[Gaz]

Be careful, i know of a gsd that was rehomed to one of its handlers and in a same position as yourself, the dog was being cared for by the handlers parents, he settled for a while until a few months passed and it all went pear shaped, cut a long story short, a bad attack and the dog had to be destroyed, just be careful.

 

[BuckarooUK]

I cant stand to see a healthy 5 year old dog put down, so will take him on if thats his only option. (The handler will tell MODs he is taking him)

You'de be a bloody idiot and i only hope that if the dog doesn't shape up, you and the handler come to your senses and let it be destroyed. You obviously have no idea of how these dogs are trained and how they are used - they're not even as manageable as ex-police dogs.
I worked with such dogs and their handlers for some time when in the Army. It takes a particularly trained handler to work and control such a dog - i dread to think what would happen if owned by an inexperienced handler and in a regular civilian environment. Could you really live with your conscious if the dog chased and then savaged a child who inadvertently triggered its chase reflex by running and screaming before struggling when the dog clamps on?

 

[JAYB]

I am a retire Police officer and had a bit to do with Police dogs. My advice to you would be to steer well clear, we used to have dogs given to us by the public because they were not suitable as pets, mainly because they were aggressive and unreliable, if they were too unreliable for us we would give them to the Army. As has already been pointed out it is not just the dogs that are trained, the handlers are trained. These dogs are past the pet stage, they need exercise, and training to prevent them becoming bored, they are through no fault of their own a bomb waiting to have it's fuse lit. It really is best for all concerned if you pass on the opportunity, the proposed course of action by the Army is in place for a reason.

John

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Plus it might bite you when you fire at a deer! Might put the dampner on a stalk!

I have a mate who is a dog handler and his first dog didnt make the grade as a Police dog because it was far too agressive and wouldnt let go of the person it was meant to be biting (at all, they had to get out of the suit with the dog still holding on). They gave it to the Army / MOD (no idea which). Apparently there is a test in the army ('apparently' being an important concept) where the dog has to bit a bloke on a bridge, he then jumps off and unless the dog is still holding on when they come out of the water it fails?

Those police dogs seem to me to be at best right on the edge and at worst partially trained, best off leaving it be and accepting that the dog may be put down

 

[Dakaras]

First off thank you all for the input. Having had 24 hours to consider the situation Ive have decided against getting invloved with the dog, much as I would like to. Ive had dogs all my life but Im not a MOD or similar trainer, Im someone that trains my own dogs from pups for what I want them to do. I dont have the skills or experiance to take this on and be 100% sure that nothing will go wrong in the future.

Id would be a fool to go against advice from more experianced people than myself in this respect, again thank you for the input.

Cheers D

 

[Dan Newcombe]

I wouldnt put yourself down about not being a good dog handler, its a totally different thing.

Im not saying that it doesnt take a lot of hard work to train a 'service' dog BUT

Police dogs etc are kept in kennels, on a lead or exercised where there arent any people ............... because they cant really be trusted. They arent allowed to run around willy nilly and get into the situation that something bad might happen, not a fun way to own a dog really

Working spaniels have just as much drive hunting cover full of game as a police dogs have the drive to detain someone and it takes as much to curb that enthusiasm as it does to control a police dog (although with a GSD its more spectacular than a spaniel flushing a rabbit). You also have to be on top of a dog with a high drive all the time, if you relax the dog will misbehave, again a lot worse with a GSD.

No idea if i have managed to get my point across but well done on making (in my mind) the right chice though

I think what im trying to say is that you could take this dog and keep it in the kennel, put it straight on the lead and only let it off where there was no one around or likely to pop up and you would be fine, treat it like a pet letting it wander round free and you would be asking for trouble

 

[sikamalc]

A difficult one this as I can understand your feelings regarding the dog but I would be careful. Dogs that have been trained in restraint or attack have been trained using different triggers to respond. Unless you are very much aware of how this dog has been trained and you are in a position to deal with that, this type of dog can be a danger. MOD dogs are trained as patrol/guarding dogs. That is exactly why the army would have this dog destroyed rather than it be given to somebody as a pet. This is doubly so in your case because if this dog restrained/attacked the wrong person and it came out that your daughters boyfriend had told porkies................

A GSD at 5 is not too old to learn "new tricks" Shepherds make good tracking dogs and have found their niche as a dual purpose tracker/man stopper with the Police/MOD/Army. I can see no reason why a 5 year old shepherd cannot be trained as a deer dog but I would give very serious consideration to my first paragraph.

I have to agree with Gazza, I would approach this opportunity with caution. I have had 2 GSD in the past, both very good dogs and brought up from pups. Having one that is specifically trained as the one you are intending to get I would give some very serious consideration to. I do beleive they can make good deer dogs, certainly enough power there to hold larger species.

I would also be careful if you have young children or grandchildren with dogs trained as this one has been.

ATB

Sikamalc

 

[ksb]

i would make sure that you are clear on the reasons he is being binned from service. I was offered an ex prison dog that allegedly wouldnt search buildings for suspects but was great in all other areas of service. While assessing the dog i found that he was very snappy when coming off the bite sleeve and wouldnt recall to the handler. The dog was making his way back to the handler and i was about to start explaining that i thought the there was more to the dog being retired than simply not searching for suspects. At this stage the dog hit me like a train not on the bite sleeve but right on my arse. It is not a nice experience. I would say that it could make a great dog but just go into it with your eyes wide open.

keith

 

[ecoman]

I've dealt with working dogs all of my working life, but only once had experience of a GSD so I cannot comment with great authority but for what it's worth - here goes.

This handsome large dog - Kim - was given to me because the young owner was working on the oil rigs and his wife had presented him with their first child. The young mother was at her wit's-end with PND and all the new hassles and the dog - being young and full of energy, (They were living in a caravan at the time), was let out of the door to the adjacent woods in the mornings and left to his own devices.

I was approached and asked if I'd take him on and the idea was that he'd probably be useful as a night-patrol companion on the river etc..

The dog was a real lamb - in fact he'd lie with a lamb between his legs and lick it dry and warm it, and he was great with the kids etc.

However- he would get restless and slip away, and the second time he did this I managed to track him down before he returned home. I found him with a yearling staggie up against a flooded water gate and he was at the latter end of ripping it's throat out. The screams of that beast were pitiful before I put it down, then - just in case this was a one-off - I put the dog on a lead and gave the it a verbal ticking off, which it accepted.

A month passed and he was off at his old game again. I managed to call him in before he created any damage, but when I got him into the harness room away from Joe public and eyeballed him he decided to show me who was boss.

There was not a bit of harness left on the wall by the time I remedied that situation as he was a busy lad, but I avoided getting more than a small bite and he obediently came to heel on the way home, to behave like an angel for another month.

I really did try, and in as gentle a manner as possible.

The next episode was when he slipped away and was reported swimming the bay after a small parcel of stags. I had just returned home after a day on the hill and I'd had enough - the stags crossed the big bay and took to the hill and the dog swam to the river mouth in order to make his way up the river path.
I buried him under a tree just after he slipped into cover.

Perhaps I gave him too many chances but I had a soft spot for him, he was superb with the kids and he was such a fine looking animal

That dog was conditioned as a youngster, because of a form of neglect, to go his own way and chase deer, and once that mindset was embedded in that large dog, he was obviously unable to comprehend that he was doing anything wrong. The previous owner did not know that his wife was letting the dog roam because he was a restless nuisance which she could not cope-with and having any dog in these circumstances was a big mistake; but to have such a dog which has a herding instinct, and he was almost the size of a medium wolf - was a disaster waiting to happen.

I do believe that once such a breed is mind-tracked, they would be difficult to change. Another of the same which was scheduled for destruction was reluctantly handed over to a keen mountain-rescuer worker who promised to rehabilitate the dog to a useful life.
That dog attacked all other dogs at the drop of a hat and was most untrustworthy. He managed to bite right through my wrist when I foolishly attempted to stop a fight with my Labrador.

It's one thing when an adult gets bitten on the backside or arm - but a kid's face and vulnerable throat is a bit too close to the dog weaponry when they get out of hand.

 

[Morgy]

I currently own and train six working dogs, trained in obedience, agility and bitework, 1 Rottweiler, 2 Dutch Shepherds and 3 GSD's. I train with many people who deal with these types of dogs and will buy these type of dogs or simply take them in and rehome them to responsible people (not saying that anyone on the forum are not responsible), who may have a need for such a dog, anyone wanting a number to rehome such a dog if you send me a PM I will give you a telephone number or two, for people who deal in this type of dog.

Cheers

Guy

P.S. The only problem I see is the dogs age.

 

[Brianm]

Sounds like a good 'anti poacher' dog !!


Brianm

 

[niko]

my gsd is lying by my feet as i type ,they are strong headed but there so inteligent
if your good at reading dogs properly and used to dealing with powerful dogs there the easyest breed ive found to train ,my boy is 6 years old and has started to go deaf so i wanted to convert vocal commands into hand signals it took a week for him to fully learn all .the only problem i see isnt the age so much as the bonding
btw hes great with rabbits,and shot birds but at home leaves the geese fine

 

[paintandpins]

I trained dogs and handlers for the Armed forces of several country’s for a number of years. If the dog is trained for service duties it will be different than if trained for Police duties. The service dogs are if you like war/attack dogs rather than police dogs. The chances are if the Army parted with it then they felt that it had a fault they couldn’t live with. dogs leave the services in one of two ways, up a chimney or to a working home if they fail the course. This will be prison service ports authority etc.
To try and rehome a military dog would be unfair on the dog and upon you. These animals are honed to a razor edge and frequently demonstrate it.
think of the scenario where it is running in the park, see's a jogger and something clicks, bits of jogger everywhere. They will also challenge the handler in ways you will not be used to. eg one dog that i trained who put 142 stitches in a handler when he tried to push it to go over a jump, this wasnt unusual. I have more scares than i care to mention and when one of these dogs is locked and on its way you wont get it back with a recall whistle
Whether you agree or not military dogs are weapons and should not be in general circulation. sorry but that’s the way they are. Plus if something does happen and you have pulled a fast one the handler will find himself collecting his p45