6.5 saum

ziggy

Well-Known Member
Just out of interest, has anybody here had one of these or know much about them? I fancy something a bit different, I don't care about barrel life etc (barrels are bad and need to be punished), I just want something different, that, if the fancy takes me, I can use to go a fair old way on gongs etc as well as being used a bit more sensibly on deer. Cheers
 
There is a good selection of 6.5 high bc projectiles to choose from. I have a 6.5-284. I dont know anything about the saum other than what you could find on the interweb. Things to be aware of is how the cartridge will feed and because of the length of the 6.5 projectiles you need to think about the restrictions of action length and mag length. I do think faster is better and certainly think the saum will be fast
 
Ive not got experience of it but read up about it as it looks a great round

From what Ive read H1000 is the go to powder and the barrel life is better than one would think
 
I know a member on ukvarminting.com had one built on a surgeon action. He didn't get the expected barrel life. If you go over to ukv I am sure you will get a good response. There are a few using the 7SAUM also.
 
Have a look at

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3877490.15

There is quite a lot on Accurate Shooter but this gives a good taste of the views on the 6.5 version of the cartridge for competition use - not good in other words. 'Elwood' is Ian Boxall, a member of the GB F-Class team and one of our top long-range shooters. The UKV reference likely involves him as he's a forum member. There are a few American fans and some claim surprisingly high barrel life with certain powders, loads, and pressures, but difficult 'load-tuning', over-rapid barrel heating, short barrel life, and general frustration are much more common experiences.

Although sharing the same case, the 7mm and .30 Rem SAUMs are very different animals. The case capacity is much better matched to these bore sizes and they have a reputation for fine accuracy and 'reasonable' barrel life, reasonable by the standards of cartridges that burn 60gn of powder anyway.
 
I did the 7mm SAUM and the 300 SAUM as well as the WSM in 270 , 300 and 325 . Gotta say I liked them all . At one point I had a Chambered Krieger fluted barrel for the 6.5 WSM as well as the reamer and dies although I never put the barrel on anything and sold the whole mess . But back to the initial question I've put seriouse thought to a 6.5 SAUM just haven't done it yet
 
The 7mm SAUM ( and the 7mm WSM ) are probably the best of the short magnums, but almost defunct now. The .30 SAUM and 7 SAUM are almost identical to the case on the .300 Newton cartridges developed my Charles Newton back in 1913. A friend of mine has a .30 Buffalo Newton rifle and it is a neat. Another built a long range 7 SAUM and loves it. I regret not buying a Remington Model 7 Laminate with the little-bit-heavier 22-inch barrel in 7 SAUM - a perfect out-of-the-box "mountain rifle".

As a side note...
Newton began building rifles off of imported 6.5 Mausers, with his .256 cartridge. And later, in the 1920s, he imported some Mausers by Sauer and built some 6.5mm of his own, but I have never heard of one surviving, and don't know if he ever sold any of them.

The 6.5-284 certainly is a good and efficient cartridge, so the 6.5 SAUM should be just a little more so.
 
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Out of all the short magnums the WSM range seems the most popular so brass is likely to be around longer. How about a 6.5 WSM?
Would likely just be a short action 264 Win Mag though.
 
Out of all the short magnums the WSM range seems the most popular so brass is likely to be around longer. How about a 6.5 WSM?
Would likely just be a short action 264 Win Mag though.

The guy I got the barrel reamer and dies for the 6.5 WSM told me the long range target guys didn't like it , they claimed it was tough on the throat in a match situation . Now for a hunting rifle I don't see why it would be any harder then anything else and if a certain amount of intelligence was used throat problems should not be that great an issue .
 
Yeah, I don't think barrel like has much to do with it for a big game rifle.
Even if it takes 200 rounds to develop a load and get some practice and your super-mega-tiger-uber magnum only gets 600 rounds to a barrel that's still 400 shots at game!!
.Have you built the 6.5 WSM up? If so, does it exceed the 264 win mag?
 
Yeah, I don't think barrel like has much to do with it for a big game rifle.
Even if it takes 200 rounds to develop a load and get some practice and your super-mega-tiger-uber magnum only gets 600 rounds to a barrel that's still 400 shots at game!!
.Have you built the 6.5 WSM up? If so, does it exceed the 264 win mag?
No I never did the 6.5 WSM I sold another fellow the barrel I had along with the other items . To be honest I think I'd rather have it in the SAUM done on a Remington Model 7 . But with already having a 260 , a 6.5-06 and a 26 Nosler I kinda have all the bases covered .
 
The guy I got the barrel reamer and dies for the 6.5 WSM told me the long range target guys didn't like it , they claimed it was tough on the throat in a match situation . Now for a hunting rifle I don't see why it would be any harder then anything else and if a certain amount of intelligence was used throat problems should not be that great an issue .

Just bear in mind that the WSM case has near identical case capacity to the long defunct .264 Win Mag and is rated at a slightly higher allowable safe maximum pressure. When Hornady did its load development for the then new 264, it used up three test barrels to obtain a range of data for three, yes three bullets!

The range of suitable slow burning powders available to load such massively over-bore capacity cartridges has improved greatly since over the last 30, 40 years including some cooler burners such as Viht N165 and Hodgdon H1000 which mitigates the effects a bit, but the long and short of it is that when you start using a case that holds 80gn or more of water in a 6.5 (the 6.5-284 Norma case holds 66gn and many consider it is approaching an over-bore capacity situation), you are burning a huge amount of additional powder and injecting a large increase in pressure and heat-energy into the chamber throat for a relatively modest increase in MVs.
 
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Ok, so if the SAUM seems as though it might be more trouble than it's worth (it doesn't to me, yet :-D ) what would be the ultimate long range capable of well over 1000 yards) 6.5?
 
Here is what QuickLOAD models for .260 Rem up to the 6.5mm Weatherby Magnum using allowable max pressures exxept for the 6.5X55 Ackley where 60,000 psi is used rather than the standard 6.5X55mm SKAN. The bullet is the 140gn Berger Hybrid, not the absolute highest BC model available, but the highest you get by ordering from your local gunshop. It is assumed the chamber is throated for the bullet at the ideal position in the neck or close (ie a calibre depth for the shank) not SAAMI or CIP (as would be done with a custom rifle) and the barrel is 30 inches. In each case two loads are provided, that calculated for a max load of high-energy / double base powder and the highest available load for a single-based type that will reduce throat erosion somwhat, or maybe even greatly. There is no guarantee that these loads would work well. They are illustrative only and shouldn't be taken as either useable or safe.

260 Rem (55gn case water cap.) 60,000 psi
48gn N560 ................. 3,044 fps
47.4gn IMR-7828SSC... 3,016

6.5X55AI (62gn case water capacity) 60,000 psi
59.8gn N570 .............. 3,190 fps
52.8gn IMR-7828SSC .. 3,113

6.5-284 Norma (66gn case weater cap) 60,000 psi
63gn N570 ................. 3,250 fps
55.4gn IMR-7828SSC .. 3,156 fps

6.5 SAUM (72gn case water cap.) 60,000 psi
66.9gn N570 .............. 3,298 fps
66gn H. Retumbo ........ 3,249

6.5 SAUM 65,000 psi
68.3gn N570 ............. 3,375 fps
67.4gn H. Retumbo ... 3,312

6.5 WSM (81gn case water cap.) 60,000 psi
72.1gn N50 ............... 3,378 fps
71.2gn H. Retumbo .... 3,279

6.5 WSM 65,000 psi
73.7gn N570 ............. 3,414 fps
72.8gn H. Retumbo .... 3,345

6.5 WBY Mag (98gn case water cap.) 60,000 psi
91.2gn 570 ............... 3,402 fps
86.2gn H50BMG ........ 3,322

6.5 WBY Mag 65,000 psi
83.6gn N570 ............. 3,468 fps
88.3gn H50BMG ......... 3,441 fps


The rule of thumb is that if the case capacity changes by X% between two cartridges, the MV changes by X% divided by 4 all other things being equal (primarily barrel length, use of a suitable powder, and maximum chamber pressure). All other things being equal doesn't apply here as half the sextet are 60,000 psi rated and the others 65,000 psi, hence why I've taken two QuickLOAD calculations.

So the 72gn Capacity SAUM has 31% more capacity than the 260 Rem so should produce around 7.5% more velocity at 60,000 psi. It's calculated to produce an extra 8.3% at 60,000 psi, so not too far out and suggesting the SAUM with a suitably slow burning powder (N570 v N560) hasn't lost a great deal of inherent efficiency.

Going up to the 81gn capacity WSM over the 72gn SAUM adds another 12.5% case capacity. Taking both designs' rated 65,000 psi PMax now, the WSM's 3,414 fps is 39 fps higher than the SAUM is expected to produce, an increase of 1.15% compared to the rule of thumb quarter value which would be 3%. This suggests the WSM is becoming seriously over useable bore capacity compared to the SAUM. The H. Retumbo as the best of the single base powders performance is better with an extra 66 fps which works out at 2%, but still down on the formula's expected value.

Go up from the SAUM to the Weatherby and case capacity increases by 36%, so this design should produce aropund 9% higher MVs. It actually produces 5% improvement with the Viht N570 combination.

Another way of looking at it is MV and ME per grain weight powder burned. The 260 Rem hottest load produces 63.4 fps / 1.0gn and 60 ft/lb ME. The SAUM at 60,000 psi runs at 49.3 fps and 50.5 ft/lb ME. Up the charges to the allowed 65,000 psi levels and it improves marginally (as expected) - 49.4 fps per grain. The Weatherby is pretty cr*p at 37.3 fps per grain powder burned. So, the Weatherby injects around 75% more heat energy into the barrel for a 14% velocity increase and a 30% ME gain.

So what sort of MVs do you need to run a good 140gn 6.5 match bullet at over 1,000 yards? All will do it easily, even the 260 Rem in long throat chamber form. Here is where each of them drops into the transonic speed zone (Speed of sound + 200 fps or ~ 1,330 fps) at the maximum calculated MV and roughly where they risk droppingt through the spound barrier in 'standard ballistics conditions of 29.92 inches mercury pressure and 59-deg F air temperature).

260 Rem ............... 1,300 / 1,500 yards

6.5X55 AI ............. 1,400 / 1,600

6.5-284 ................ 1,450 / 1,600

SAUM ................... 1,500 / 1,700

WSM .................... 1,500 / 1,700

WBY ..................... 1,550 / 1,775

If you want to see what small 6 and 6.5mm cartridges can do from 26 inch barrel tactical rifles and with lighter bullets have a look at Scotty and Chiuck's three-round challenge video on You Tube with a 6XC / 155s and 6.5 Creedmoor with 123s at up to 1,700 yards. Well worth watching as a fun video.

 
Correction on the video. 6mm Super LR (243 Win with a pushed-back 30-degree shoulder and longer neck than standard) and the 115 Sierra / Tubb DTAC match bullet v 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor and 123gn Lapua Scenar.
 
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Thanks Laurie, just have a hankering and that's nice of you to dig that out for me. Very much appreciated.
 
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