950yrd shot at a deer

[Shawn Carlock]

Hello,

My name is Shawn Carlock and am new to the stalking site. I don't consider this stalking it is in fact big game sniping. I find it unfortunate that people condem this technique just because it is not stalking. You can make low % unethical shots in any form of hunting from archery to sniping. The method of take (as long as it is legal) doesn't really enter into the ethics, that is a personel issue. Some people enjoy these methods and others enjoy archery or closer range firearm stalking. Why is it one is less acceptable than the other? The pair of guys in the video spotting and shooting are skilled pros, they practice constantly, are licensed guides, released a how to long range hunting video and are very selective about taking high % shots. I know this because I was the one who squeezed the trigger. I have only lost a two animals in 30 years of hunting one in archery a 22 yards good shot that I just flatly blew and a moving elk at about 80-90 yards in a moderate brush. These two instances absolutly made me sick to my stomach that I had in some capacity wounded an animal and was not able to recover it. On the other hand I have never lost a long range animal. The bottom line however is that while being an accomplished stalker, archery hunter and wing shooter I choose to hunt long range. Should I be condemed for this technique just because it is not stalking? It is my opinion that as hunters of many different techniques we need to stick together as hunters and keep an open mind to new opportunities. I like this site and hope to be around some.

 

[Ronin]

Welcome to the site Shaun.

Regardless of ethical issues / discussion the shots shown on the video you made show extreme skill.

I for one have been around the US long range forums for many years and like all things, longer range shooting with correct skills and equipment is coming in slowly to the UK.

There is fundamental differences to what is "acceptable mainstream" hunting (known as Deer Stalking here) and deer / animal control using extended ranges and the right equipment.

I am pretty sure that most people here consider hunting accuracy to be able to place 3 shots within a 4 inch circle at 100 yards - this is the "standard UK Deer Stalking test" for rifle abilities.

I think it persoanly a very poor standard one I would expect to shoot a 4inch group at 800 yards not 100 with my own rifles.

However, I do not make the rules (thankfully)


It is also accepted that great skill is involved and deployed by UK stalkers in getting very close to their quarry before delivering the killing shot.

Some of us are not blessed with areas where there is sufficent cover to "get close" to the quarry so the longer shot is the standard rather than exception (and I do not mean 900 yards here)

One also must only consider longer shots is the weather conditions are correct - little or no wind, stable shooting position, calm quarry etc etc etc.


No doubt having read some of the comments you will be wondering what kind of storm you will encounter here, however, I for one welcome you and think you would have much to offer, not only the deer section but the gunsmithing areas too.

Diversity should be welcomed not criticised - give the guy a break

 

[Thar]

Welcome to the site Shaun, I don’t have issue with the long range shooting, it not stalking but each to there own with some provisos.

You have wounded only two animals in 30 years??????

You are indeed an exceptional skilled marksman or don’t shoot many deer. The average European or NZ stalker even getting in close is pretty poor marksman compared to that.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[The Mole]

Long range shooting? Anyone can pull off a stunning extreme range shot eventually - just don't post the failures on YouTube and spoil the effect.

There's no substitute for getting as close as you can. Leave the trick shooting on the other side of the Atlantic where some people seem to think it's clever.

 

[Bandit Country]

Hi Shawn & welcome to the site. I'm sure you will have a lot to contribute, especially on marksmanship matters. One question I would ask is, in any given set of weather conditions and all other things being equal are you more certain of hitting a same size target at 150 yards or 1500 yards?

For some reason I can't view the video referred to and not being an IT dweeb can't figure out the solution. So second question (which may be answered in the vid) - did you shoot the deer at that distance because you had to cull that particular animal, you needed the meat or simply because you could do it?

Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth, I'm not having a dig, I'm simply trying to understand why Shawn does what he does.

 

[Shawn Carlock]

Thanks for the warm reception given the entry subject. I have in fact only lost 2 animals in 30 years. I have taken a trainload of whitetail deer, 14 elk, 1 caribou, 3 black bears, 2 muledeer, 1 pronghorn antelope and more varmints than I can count. I have taken some with archery, handgun, shotgun, and long range rifle. I enjoy all facets of hunting. I started taking my daughter hunting long range when she was 5. Long range gives more opportunities for the kids to observe animals at distance and doesn't require so much noise and movement disipline. They are learning those skills now that they are 6 and 8 years old and go archery hunting with me now. Personelly I enjoy long range hunting for a number of reasons, I spot and observe 10-20 times as many animals on a given day. Last year my hunting partner and I videoed two large bull elk fighting for about 6-7 minutes and despite perfect shooting conditions never fired a shot because of the unpredictable movement during the fighting. The fog rolled in and they were never to be seen again. I am only interested in taking high % 1st round shots and work very hard toward the goal of not losing anymore than the two animals I have. I am the first to admit that there are 2 kinds of hunters the ones who have lost hit game and those that are going to at some point. This is not a long range issue but a hunting issue in general. People take shots above their skill level all of the time and this is unfortunate. I teach long range hunting classes here in the US and other locations. The basis of my classes are learning your abilities and taking advantage of them without stepping past them. I am not the best long range shooter on the face of the planet but have an extensive back ground in long range shooting personelly and professionally. It is reasonable to say that my abilities are above average. The 4" circle benchmark, described above, on a day with good conditions (that is very important) is doable at distances 600-800 yards with the right equipment. If you take the video clip in question, 950 yards, perfect conditions, perfect shooting position, plenty of time to set the shot up and most importantly well within my practiced ability. My shot hit within 2" of my mark, thus the dramatic terminal effect. It is possible we might have moved around the canyon and made a stalk to less than 100 yards, but I spent the majority of my first 15 years hunting shooting less than 100 yards. I enjoy the precision of long range and the unique challenges it offers. Given this back ground and mind set, I just choose to acomplish my goal differently. I don't believe this makes me a SOB for being different, just different. If someone chooses to take any shot they are presented with at long range, I have found these to be the same guys who just shoot no matter what the difficulty/ability level is or the method of hunting. These guys are beyond our saving from themselves.
I hope very much to be able to come to the UK to experience some of its unique hunting opportunities and film them for one of my up coming videos.

 

[Bob]

Hi Shawn and welcome to the forum. You have obviously been successful at many types of stalking and hunting.

Your long range shooting ability is a skill that not many people have and fewer would have achieved your excellent recovery record for the animals you shot. I have never trained for long range shooting as, where I shoot it is not necessary and probably my own abilities would preclude me from being good at it but I'd be happy to give it a go on targets. I prefer to be under 100 yds but on occasion stretch to 250 yds, for me the excitement is getting close and being undetected.

I would be interested to know what % of your long range shots were one shot kills also what is the average time of flight for your bullet to travel the 900 yards or so to the target. My point being that assuming it takes, say 1.5 seconds how can you ensure that the deer will stay still long enough for the shot to hit the point of aim and kill, assuming no deflection from odd gusts /puffs of wind or or intervening vegetation that can't be seen due to distance.

I know that deer can and do move after a shot has been taken but before the bullet hits. At close range the effect of this movement is obviously less and the odds are higher for a clean one shot kill.

Of course the movement a deer may make can, on occasion, work to the stalkers advantage. Recent evidence of this was related on this site (see the Articles section) where a novice stalker under supervision went for a chest shot on a deer and then found that he had also head shot it as well. In the time taken for the bullet to strike the deer it had moved its head towards it's ribcage and after the bullet exited the chest it then pased through its head.

So, even if I could, I would not shoot deer or foxes at long range because of potential wounding issues however as this is a practice that I am unfamiliar with you may be able to enlighten me with more information as I am intrested to know more about it.

Bob

 

[Shawn Carlock]

Bob,

All fair questions.
A high number have been one shot stops (I don't know the exact number but quite high. Off the top of my head in the last 8 years I have had 2 animals get a second shot, both were hit well on the first but did not drop instantly and I tend to put it to them until they are in the dirt.
Time of flight for the 338 Edge I use is just less than a second at 900 yards. You are correct that in 1 second an animal can move, turn, drop or dive before the bullet gets there. This is one of the many long range challenges you face with this type of hunting. I tend to profile the animals movement before firing. The 950 deer in questions is actually bedded down making for a very still shot. Feeding deer are very pattern oreintated and tend to do the feed for 5 or 6 seconds, lift the head look around move a little and feed again for 5 or 6 seconds. I time my shot for the begining of one of these cycles when possible. If I locate a moving animal like an elk I'll get set and ready to fire then bugle at them. This usually stops them in their tracks for 6-10 seconds trying to locate the oponent giving a good window of oportunity. I flatly don't shoot at moving long range animals unless they have already been hit. Case in point I shot an elk at 1038 yards 3 years ago first shot was a solid quartering forward hit through the chest exiting mid ribcage on the off side. This shot was taken standing still feeding. It was very cold and I saw the frost fly from the fur at the bullets impact. I loaded a second round as the elk started to trot left to right up a ridge. I led him 5 MOA and fired the second round a complete pass through entering between rib 2 and 3 from the back and exiting mid cage on the exit side at 1060ish. Upon the second round impact the elk turned away walked about 30 feet and piled up. Again shooting conditions were very good cold clear and still. Shooting from a good solid shooting position, prone, bipod, light weight rear bag. I know my various rifles ballistics exactly and how long it takes me to get off an accurate shot. I practice out to 2000 yards on a regular basis. However my range limit on game in perfect conditions is around 1500 yards. I know where my limits are in most any given shooting conditions. I have been hunting in conditions that limited my effective range to 500-600 yards to ensure a good first round hit. If you are interested in long range shooting/hunting I have several information articles on my website defensiveedge.net. Drop me aline if you have any questions.

 

[griff]

We have had this discussion over and over again, these people don't want to be educated!
Do you really think that a shot at a 1000yds is a "quick theres a deer shoot it", surely thats not as reckless as a quick shot at a deer in ride at 80yds without sticks,and even with sticks I doubt if a 8moa would be acheivable by the majority..
Now lets ask a real question how many of you have blown the legs of a deer at less than 100yds or spined it or lost it becuase it was gut shot..
I bet you there isn't a stalker on this forum or AR that has not done any of the above, so before you condemn anyone else, let him who is without guilt cast the first stone..
I shot a stag at the weekend at 471yds,I watched him for two hours and contemplated taking a head shot, but decided that the conditions were not perfect, the wind was blowing in my face but kept dropping off, so decided on a heart shot, he was fast asleep and had no idea I was there, he eventually stood up and as he stretched I sent a 140gn on its way
great shot placement just behind the front leg and out through the opposite shoulder,never took another step! Was I reckless?
Took into account, the wind the range the conditions, how many even consider these at mere 100yds, and if you think it doesn't have an effect,well enough said.
If you can't do it, don't want to do it, then fine, but don't criticise those that can.

regards
griff

 

[snowstorm]

Just a general quesiton here.

At those ranges can a bullet lose enough energy to make to make it fall below the legal minimum allowed in the UK ?

 

[devilishdave]

Energy

Inerestingly enough there is no legal minimum impact energy in the UK just a minimum Muzzle energy.

From Snipers Paradise.

338 Edge Exterior Ballistics

Note that the energy remaining at 1000 yards is still 1622 ft lbs with a velocity of 1710 fps. That is more than many rifles used for hunting have at 100 yards and fits most lethality theories for putting down elk. Other interesting data is that it only takes 22.5 MOA to be on at 1000 yards from a 100 yard zero. That is the setting for my .308 at 700 meters! Time of flight is 1.3 seconds (1.7 seconds for my .308), and drift in a 10 mph wind is 60.5 inches. Although that seems like a lot, and it is, that drift is on a par with many rifles shot in 1000 yard competition by shooters whose very career seems to hang on cutting the wind problem to a minimum. For example, the darling of the 1000 yard shooters today is the 6.5x284 busting the 139 Lapua Scenar bullet down range at about 3050 fps. The drift from that is 60.8 inches. The .338 Edge's ballistics are very impressive for a 250 grain bullet with considerably more weight, frontal area, and delivered energy.



Dave

 

[griff]

One of the reasons I chose the 264 was that at 500 yards with the correct bullet I have approx 1600ft lbs of energy, more than the 300winnie at the same range..
the 6.5mm and the 7mm have the best B.C of all modern bullets excuding of course the 50bmg and the338..
But B.C doesn't matter at 100yds.

regards
griff

 

[snowstorm]

Hi Griff, it was the really long ones, 1000+ I wanted to know about. I knew 450 would be OK.

 

[Shawn Carlock]

We have changed our rifle profile since the initial artricle on snipers hide. We switched tro 30" barrels and 300 gr. SMK bullets. At 1000 yards it has the same impact energy a 308 Win has at the muzzle. I have not failed to shoot through any North American big game animal (I have not shot a grizzly or coastal brown) out to 1000 yards and just beyond. We did some penetration testing prior to hunting the 300 gr. SMK. With an impact velocity of 1700 fps it will still penetrate over 24" of ballistic gelatin and pass through a 1/4" mild steel plate. In the end it comes down to the same old story, "those that can, do ... those that can't complain". I won't beat a dead horse but I'd be happy to pass on any of the lessons we have learned in terms of long range shooting/hunting to any of the interested board members here.

 

[The Mole]

This thread makes for very uncomfortable reading. There is nothing wrong in stretching the limits of marksmanship - I just don't like the idea of using live quarry to prove the point though. And I think that's all they are - targets, being used to prove a shooter's ability and nothing more. I'm not getting much respect for the quarry here.

Sorry if you disagree, but that's my take on it. BTW, this is the Stalking Directory.

 

[The Mole]

the ones that have the problem are the ones that either cannot do it or do not have the self control to do it only when its on.

Not necessarily. Many of us can, and do have the self control - we simply choose to show our quarry more respect than treat them as targets to demonstrate our superior shooting on.

I have taken what, for me, are long shots at deer but only when it has been necessary and the circumstances have been right. Otherwise it has been a case of simply getting closer to make absolutely sure of the shot.

Otherwise - see you on Century Range ............

 

[legaleagle69]

I think we all are entitled to our own opinions, I for one am fascinated by this long range shooting, if you are without sin cast the first stone Mole old mate. You ever missed and wounded anything?
I have and it is a rotten feeling.
This guy seems a very genuine bloke who can do what you do ("FIRST 15 YEARS!! stalking at under 100 yards") and has many Tshirts to prove it, my shooting isn't good enough t get anywhere close to Shauns skill, but I have a good friend who I have watched drop very very tight groups at extreme ranges and very sure he could if he wished do this type of shooting.

Shaun welcome mate it maybe a stalking site but as far as most of us are concerned we are happy to other interesting contributors, makes life far more interesting

 

[jon2]

There is nothing wrong with Long Range Hunting in my opinion and everything right to be honest.

I enjoy hunting at extreme short range, medium range and extended range and have rifles set up for each particular type of hunting method.

I get an immense amount of staisfaction from getting as close as possible to an animal (especially when I have spied it from a long way away), I also enjoy mainstream stalking (read shots upto 300 - 350 yards) and I also enjoy making a shot on an animal which has been glassed from distance and where I have set up taken range/wind into consideration and made the adjustment on the scope and made the shot.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it and cannot understand the mentality of those who say it is wrong??? Why??? If you are capable of making the shot then what is the problem??

I read a similar thread on another forum where someone said I am a stalker not a long range shooter. Yes that's fine but I want to be both and why can't I be both? In fact I recently acquired a combi rifle shotgun the idea being getting close enough to use iron sights and I love this type of hunting. But as I say, I am also capable of making long shots on deer and in certain circumstances in the past it has proved a very effective culling method.

I for one very much welcome Shawn and his high level of skillful marksmanship to this site without any doubt.

 

[The Mole]

I think we all are entitled to our own opinions, I for one am fascinated by this long range shooting, if you are without sin cast the first stone Mole old mate. You ever missed and wounded anything?

Not the point, legal - I'm fascinated by long range stuff as well - in it's proper time & place (ie on the ranges or sniping proper). None of us are without sin but it helps to try and avoid it if we can. There, I've said my piece, put me down as an unbeliever when it comes down to long range hunting . As you say, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

 

[The Mole]

I'm not going to be drawn into philosophical debate on this one 300. I suspect that you know exactly what I meant. And you're distracting from the point I made about the correct time & place for testing personal marksmanship.