Air travel with a firearm
- Thread starter Basil2015
- Start date
I will be carrying their T&C's printed off their web site, as in an earlier post "Ammunition may be packed with the firearm, if securely boxed", So two sealed MTM 's in the correct calibre, shrink wrapped, & cut into the foam.
Scots_stalker
Well-Known Member
Last night we had a meeting to iron out our trip to germany in 4 weeks. Again we called lufthansa to confirm our rifles have been booked on. And again the person didnt want to know anything but the pellicase dimentions , no firearm licence numbers. European hunting licence numbers. Serial numbers they didnt even ask for payment. ( usually 70 euros ). This is the 3rd time in 2 weeks we have called and had the same thing. Totally different to any other time we have flown with them , but what else can you do but take the persons word that your dealing with that its sorted ( we have email confirmation)
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
This has prompted me to contact Heathrow as i intend flying out of there next year with rifle and ammo, i have had an initial response which has alarmed me and i have asked for clarification as i can't believe what they are saying, it might actually explain why i had so much trouble last year, i will keep you all updated.
Cheers
Richard
Cheers
Richard
Orion
Well-Known Member
What/who was the source of the information that has given cause for concern, LHR Airports Ltd, Met Police, or UK Border Force? From the information on their websites they all appear to be singing from the same songsheet with regard to lawfully held sporting firearms; i.e. domestic license/EFP required; and defer to the carrier for the preferred requirements regarding packaging/ammo rifle together or separate/ etc.
http://www.heathrowinformation.co.uk/heathrow-airport-INF-information-security-restr-proh.php
http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Travelling-with-firearms/1400023654735/1400023654735
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
Like i said above, i will keep you updated, i just read through your links, it doesn't cover what has been stated in the email i got today, i have questioned it, they have still got to get back to me, it appears that they are NOT singing from the same hymn sheet if it is correct, which too be honest i doubt. They quoted text from their website, i think it is wrong. I am like a dog with a bone, i wont let it go!
BTW, Delta altered their website to include a new section as a direct result of the problems i experienced last year.
Cheers
Richard
BTW, Delta altered their website to include a new section as a direct result of the problems i experienced last year.
Cheers
Richard
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Richard, Just been speaking with a guy on Manchester airports management team, ammunition MUST be separate from the firearm, it can be in a sealed plastic container, exact words, so, always best to clarify, he is also going to check the blurb on Easy jets T&C's.
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
OK, this is in relation to Heathrow and Delta/KLM airlines.
After the issues i had in 2014 with Delta they changed their website and stated 'Ammunition must be packed in the hold separately from the rifle and locked'
Out of interest i contacted Heathrow airport and they emailed me this:
'Dear Mr jackson,
Thank you for contacting Heathrow.
I am afraid you are not allowed to carry ammunition in either hand or hold luggage.
Taken from our website;
For safety reasons, the following items cannot be taken on to an aircraft. Please do not pack them in either hand baggage or hold luggage.
As i said in my previous post, this surprised me, so i challenged it, they emailed today and stated that in fact 'you can pack ammunition in the hold or with the rifle' so it appears the owners of Heathrow airport have their rules and airlines their own rules.
I have requested Heathrow change the website as it is inaccurate, hopefully they will get back to me on that one.
The best advice, based on my own experience,good and bad, is prior to travel print off everything and if possible get emails from them and also print them off, then the 'jobsworths' won't have a leg to stand on at the check in, oh and BTW make sure you check in early!
There was one funny incident that happened as a result of this last year, i was the last one to board the plane, the person in front of me was a passenger having 'special' treatment' and directed to first class, i thought he looked familiar but i was pouring with sweat having ran to the gate. At Minneapolis immigration there were only 2 Brits on the flight, me and the VIP, he gave me a glancing look and i nodded a hello which he ignored, so i thought well what can one do but take the mickey out of him for ignoring me, 'nice earrings buddy, i wish i could afford to buy my wife a pair like that' he did a double take as he must have thought how dare someone take the mickey out of me, he then said, 'yeah but i can afford them' it was Lewis Hamilton on his way to the Texas GP!
Cheers
Richard
After the issues i had in 2014 with Delta they changed their website and stated 'Ammunition must be packed in the hold separately from the rifle and locked'
Out of interest i contacted Heathrow airport and they emailed me this:
'Dear Mr jackson,
Thank you for contacting Heathrow.
I am afraid you are not allowed to carry ammunition in either hand or hold luggage.
Taken from our website;
For safety reasons, the following items cannot be taken on to an aircraft. Please do not pack them in either hand baggage or hold luggage.
- Explosives, ammunition, detonators and related equipment'
As i said in my previous post, this surprised me, so i challenged it, they emailed today and stated that in fact 'you can pack ammunition in the hold or with the rifle' so it appears the owners of Heathrow airport have their rules and airlines their own rules.
I have requested Heathrow change the website as it is inaccurate, hopefully they will get back to me on that one.
The best advice, based on my own experience,good and bad, is prior to travel print off everything and if possible get emails from them and also print them off, then the 'jobsworths' won't have a leg to stand on at the check in, oh and BTW make sure you check in early!
There was one funny incident that happened as a result of this last year, i was the last one to board the plane, the person in front of me was a passenger having 'special' treatment' and directed to first class, i thought he looked familiar but i was pouring with sweat having ran to the gate. At Minneapolis immigration there were only 2 Brits on the flight, me and the VIP, he gave me a glancing look and i nodded a hello which he ignored, so i thought well what can one do but take the mickey out of him for ignoring me, 'nice earrings buddy, i wish i could afford to buy my wife a pair like that' he did a double take as he must have thought how dare someone take the mickey out of me, he then said, 'yeah but i can afford them' it was Lewis Hamilton on his way to the Texas GP!
Cheers
Richard
Orion
Well-Known Member
I can see where there's possibly some confusion with them arising out of the prohibition on undeclared ammunition, (and other items such as fireworks etc.), being packed in general checked hold luggage or carry on bags.
If, as in our case, we are booking and declaring firearms and ammunition to the airline, then the published T&Cs regarding lawfully held ammo will apply and it will be allowed on the aircraft - just depends on the carrier as to whether they want it separated or will allow it to be packed with the firearm, so a small lockable Peli type case would appear to cover all eventualities.
Pre-booking firearms with the carrier, and as you say, printing off the T&Cs and anything else of relevance must be the way to go. Hopefully the man on the gate will know his business better than Kellys!
If, as in our case, we are booking and declaring firearms and ammunition to the airline, then the published T&Cs regarding lawfully held ammo will apply and it will be allowed on the aircraft - just depends on the carrier as to whether they want it separated or will allow it to be packed with the firearm, so a small lockable Peli type case would appear to cover all eventualities.
Pre-booking firearms with the carrier, and as you say, printing off the T&Cs and anything else of relevance must be the way to go. Hopefully the man on the gate will know his business better than Kellys!
NorthDorset
Well-Known Member
Guys I thought I would just update this thread with my recent experience of travelling British Airways to the Czech Republic.
Firstly the checkin staff don't know their business when it comes to firearms. This is true of all the ground staff that I have so far encountered across two airlines. Showing up with a firearm or WEAPON as they insist on calling it sends them scurrying for supervisors, managers and thumbing through manuals.
BA require the gun and the ammunition to be separate. They then require £50 for the gun and £50 for the bag with the Ammo.
On other routes this is not the case. Read the BA website very carefully.
On the way back I had used my ammo to save the return charges. However I had left the bolt, magazine, empty cases and a toolkit in the cash tin, in my carry on and this wasn't permissible. Czech security was very kind about this and nobody had asked me any of the standard questions as I was busy paying the handling fee. In the end the BA Gate staff checked my hand luggage with the offending bits into the hold for free (they were doing this anyway as the flight back was busy)
Compared to my previous experience on Air Canada travelling British Airways was a disaster.
Firstly the checkin staff don't know their business when it comes to firearms. This is true of all the ground staff that I have so far encountered across two airlines. Showing up with a firearm or WEAPON as they insist on calling it sends them scurrying for supervisors, managers and thumbing through manuals.
BA require the gun and the ammunition to be separate. They then require £50 for the gun and £50 for the bag with the Ammo.
On other routes this is not the case. Read the BA website very carefully.
On the way back I had used my ammo to save the return charges. However I had left the bolt, magazine, empty cases and a toolkit in the cash tin, in my carry on and this wasn't permissible. Czech security was very kind about this and nobody had asked me any of the standard questions as I was busy paying the handling fee. In the end the BA Gate staff checked my hand luggage with the offending bits into the hold for free (they were doing this anyway as the flight back was busy)
Compared to my previous experience on Air Canada travelling British Airways was a disaster.
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Easyjet's terms and conditions are incorrect, you have to comply with the rules at each airport, & they can differ, Manchester outbound did not have a clue (Easyjet), we had to speak with airport staff who go airside to get the proper instructions, ammunition separate from firearms,& tagged either on it's own, or within a tagged luggage item, these items go at opposite ends of the cargo hold, we saw them being loaded & separated, returning from Basle on the following day of the terrorist attacks in Paris it could not have been smoother, Easyjet staff were brilliantly efficient at Basle.
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
I have made a decision, i am not taking the risk when i go back on my Elk hunt in October, i will ask my friend in Montana to buy me some factory ammo, i will use the same ammo prior to flying out.
He will will need to buy it early, they just don't have any on the shelves near to the start of the hunt season.
Cheers
Richard
He will will need to buy it early, they just don't have any on the shelves near to the start of the hunt season.
Cheers
Richard
tusker
Well-Known Member
hi mate , so sorry to hear you got" raped" by B.A. but I cannot believe anyone travels with them with firearms I have posted on here many times about the obseen charges they inflict on folks I can only assume you couldn't have flown with anyone else.
We are off to Romania next year and we will hire guns out there as it is cheaper than paying airline charges. I have flown with South African with fire arms and it couldn't be more straight forward, why cant others take their leed.
Tusker
NorthDorset
Well-Known Member
Air Canada. £35 gun, ammo, toolkit. No problems.
Recommendations for the future gratefully received.
Recommendations for the future gratefully received.
Wrens Mews
Well-Known Member
Highly recommend Virgin from Manchester to anywhere. They are extremely professional and efficient. Even when faced with a full team carrying .50bmg rifles.
They assign someone to look after the process start to finish and we are normally through and airside within 30 mins of arriving at the airport.
I would not fly from anywhere else or with anyone else these days
.
flying felix
Well-Known Member
Hi guys,
Looks as there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding on the Carriage of firearms and ammunition on air transportation.
First is to understand there are three elements involved the Carrier, the Handler and the Airport Security.
The Carrier is the airline that you are travelling with and they should be the only aspect you need to deal with prior to your planned flight. Under ICAO rules they (the carrier) can carry up to 5 kg of (Sporting) Small Arms Ammunition of HD 1.4 per passenger. “Sporting” is used to distinguish between commercial/ governmental/ military transportation. The reason it is preferred to be in the manufacturers’ packaging is that it has tested and given a UN certification and where necessary a ESTC transportation code. Although carriers have this dispensation to the carriage of dangerous good by air, they are not obliged to so, and have the right to refuse. The carrier may request proof of permission to hold as arriving in a foreign country without a legal reason to have said firearms and ammunition can lead to a prosecution of the carrier. Same as arriving without a valid passport or visa.
The Handler are the ground crews who look after the aircraft, load it up, refuel etc. All firearms and ammunition should be treated as “secure baggage” that means it is taken from the check in area directly to the aircraft by the handler or their agent and not along the baggage transportation system. The Handlers may charge the Carrier to do this and as a result the cost may get passed onto the passenger.
Airport Security are responsible for ensuring prohibited and forbidden items are identified in baggage and on passengers. First thing to remember is that prohibited does not mean that it is not allowed, just that its carriage requires additional conditions. You should not go airport security before reaching the check in so generally it is not an issue. In high security airports then just declare that you are legally carrying firearms and ammunition and have your legal paperwork ready. You can also ask for items found at security to go into secure baggage as well. For example I was carrying a laser sight in by hand baggage (many years before the high intensity lasers came out). The security declared it as an offensive weapon and said that it would be confiscated. They were very surprised when I said that although they had the right to declare it an offensive weapon they had no right to confiscate it and I wanted it to be sent to the cabin crew as secure baggage. One of the security staff had to then come to the gate and hand it over to the cabin crew and it was given back to me as I got off the flight. The same as injected medication etc. It can be handy when you know the rules better than the staff!
So, contact the carrier and only the carrier and ask do they allow the carriage of sporting firearms (never use the term weapons) and ammunition and what are THEIR requirements. Declare at the time of booking the flight (phone up after booking online) and again at arrival at check in.
Having said all that, I’ve stood at baggage claim desk while they were frantically trying to find my ammo when the wife spotted it coming down the baggage carousel with everyone else’s bags.
Looks as there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding on the Carriage of firearms and ammunition on air transportation.
First is to understand there are three elements involved the Carrier, the Handler and the Airport Security.
The Carrier is the airline that you are travelling with and they should be the only aspect you need to deal with prior to your planned flight. Under ICAO rules they (the carrier) can carry up to 5 kg of (Sporting) Small Arms Ammunition of HD 1.4 per passenger. “Sporting” is used to distinguish between commercial/ governmental/ military transportation. The reason it is preferred to be in the manufacturers’ packaging is that it has tested and given a UN certification and where necessary a ESTC transportation code. Although carriers have this dispensation to the carriage of dangerous good by air, they are not obliged to so, and have the right to refuse. The carrier may request proof of permission to hold as arriving in a foreign country without a legal reason to have said firearms and ammunition can lead to a prosecution of the carrier. Same as arriving without a valid passport or visa.
The Handler are the ground crews who look after the aircraft, load it up, refuel etc. All firearms and ammunition should be treated as “secure baggage” that means it is taken from the check in area directly to the aircraft by the handler or their agent and not along the baggage transportation system. The Handlers may charge the Carrier to do this and as a result the cost may get passed onto the passenger.
Airport Security are responsible for ensuring prohibited and forbidden items are identified in baggage and on passengers. First thing to remember is that prohibited does not mean that it is not allowed, just that its carriage requires additional conditions. You should not go airport security before reaching the check in so generally it is not an issue. In high security airports then just declare that you are legally carrying firearms and ammunition and have your legal paperwork ready. You can also ask for items found at security to go into secure baggage as well. For example I was carrying a laser sight in by hand baggage (many years before the high intensity lasers came out). The security declared it as an offensive weapon and said that it would be confiscated. They were very surprised when I said that although they had the right to declare it an offensive weapon they had no right to confiscate it and I wanted it to be sent to the cabin crew as secure baggage. One of the security staff had to then come to the gate and hand it over to the cabin crew and it was given back to me as I got off the flight. The same as injected medication etc. It can be handy when you know the rules better than the staff!
So, contact the carrier and only the carrier and ask do they allow the carriage of sporting firearms (never use the term weapons) and ammunition and what are THEIR requirements. Declare at the time of booking the flight (phone up after booking online) and again at arrival at check in.
Having said all that, I’ve stood at baggage claim desk while they were frantically trying to find my ammo when the wife spotted it coming down the baggage carousel with everyone else’s bags.
Very useful post, thank you.
Your last comment (above) makes me smile. I enjoy watching all the firearms appear on the carousel in Zagreb airport, whereas at Heathrow you have to wait what seems like hours for the security guys to bring the firearms up separately - a problem when half the flight's passengers seem to be hunters!
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