Ammunition swap /buy

You can transfer. You cant sell commercially. That is from the proof house-its why you submit samples for CIP approval.


I would strongly suggest asking your insurance provider. Lets see if youre covered for that.


Yes and No, lot testing by the proof house anybody can submit sample ammunition or cartridges to be lot tested to see if they are CIP compliant. But CIP approval is far more complicated.

CIP approval I s voluntary in the U.K.



Obtaining CIP Manufacturing Approval

Obtaining CIP approval as a manufacturer is not as simple of a process as many often think. CIP Cartridge Control is a form of accreditation, (additional to ISO accreditation, which the manufacturer must have in place), developed by the CIP so that Member States can accept the import and sale of ammunition on the basis of approval being given to a manufacturer, either indigenous or from outside the CIP community. The ammunition approval mark which has to appear on the smallest packaging of approved ammunition is much like the proof mark on firearms, in that it is reciprocally accepted by all CIP Member States.

Therefore, the UK Proof Authority stipulates that any manufacturer seeking CIP approval must have, as a minimum, ISO 9001 accreditation, prior to any consideration of their application.


The stages of approval are as follows:-


1) Sample testing & factory visit where systems of manufacture, pressure testing in accordance with CIP, record keeping, calibration documentation etc. are examined as well as the ISO 9001 Quality manual. (Travel expenses of BPL staff are to be reimbursed by the manufacturer.)


2) After this an offer will be made to proceed on the basis of an annual fee, which will be based on the volume of annual production and the number of calibres which are to be homologated (type- approved).


3) If accepted, a contract will be produced for signature by both the BPL and the manufacturer, following which significant (see CIP regulations) ammunition samples will be sent by the manufacturer of each calibre/ gauge of ammunition they produce (normally the highest pressure in the range of ammunition produced in that calibre) to the BPL. This will be subject to dimensional, pressure, velocity and functional testing (in a range of arms appropriate to the ammunition).


The fee referred to in point (2) above covers all costs of the homologation process, which if successful will result in the issue by the BPL of a homologation report for each calibre/ gauge covering all variation of loads, etc.


for that calibre /gauge. It will also cover the cost of the subsequent periodic testing of samples of ammunition of the homologated calibres/ gauges, the sourcing of which would be discussed on the factory visit.


4) Additionally, the smallest packaging units for the ammunition will be subject for approval by the BPL for homologated calibres/ gauges. After which the manufacturer will be allowed to include the BPL ammunition approval mark (the CIP ammunition approval mark followed by the BPL mark.)


5) All successfully homologated ammunition will be posted on the CIP website (no technical information disclosed) so all interested parties can verify the calibres that a manufacturer is approved for.

As with any manufacturer, submission for ammunition pressure/ velocity testing can happen at any time (details of the cost of ammunition testing can be supplied on request), before the approval process starts for the purposes of comparing your pressure/ velocity measurements with the BPL’s. Later, the annual fee assumes that the manufacturer may wish to submit samples from time to time in addition to those we require for the CIP process. The contract will state how many such tests are included in the annual fee.

Lot Testing

The Birmingham Proof House can of course test a single “Lot” (a single batch of ammunition, manufactured using a single “Lot" of propellant with exactly the same batches of components e.g. projectiles, cases and primers) and give approval solely for this Lot of ammunition (the specific Lot number only). However, this must not be confused with full CIP Cartridge Control approval and has to be repeated continually for subsequent Lots requiring CIP approval and to be offered for sale. Please note a contract agreement and fees are also applicable to this process.



Samuel S Perry
Deputy Proof Master

Birmingham Proof House
Banbury Street
Birmingham
B5 5RH.
 
And it is threads like this that are monitored and the dickheads involved advertising their foolishness, will only bring yet tighter regulations on those of us who do reload in quantity.

The quantity issue for reloading has never been defined or tested in a court of law, even the CIP exemption does not state a quantity hence no defined maximum quantity above which it would be a considered commercial activity.
 
If you make and sell ammunition to someone else doesn't the proof house need to get involved?

Yup, needs to be CIP approved. Plus insurance.
Does it legally need CIP approval? Granted insurance would be sensible but a legal requirement?
 
Like all such questions is much the best to the Acts in law. Key is the Firarms Act 1968 which covers the business and transfer of firearms and ammunition it states:


Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.
(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—

(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; [F4or] F5. . .

(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun, [F6[F7or]

(c)[F8sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,]]

without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer.

(2)It is an offence for a person to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire it or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.

(3)It is an offence for a person to undertake the repair, test or proof of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, for any other person in the United Kingdom other than a registered firearms dealer as such, unless that other produces or causes to be produced a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of the firearm or ammunition or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to have possession of it without holding a certificate.

(4)Subsections (1) to (3) above have effect subject to any exemption under subsequent provisions of this Part of this Act.

(5)A person commits an offence if, with a view to purchasing or acquiring, or procuring the repair, test or proof of, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, he produces a false certificate or a certificate in which any false entry has been made, or personates a person to whom a certificate has been granted, or [F9knowingly or recklessly makes a statement false in any material particular].



There is also the Firarems Act Ammendment 1988 which may have to say on the matter.

You then need to check the proof laws as to whether or not you can sell unproofed ammo.

like all things on the Interwebulator take your own judgement and do your own research.
 
Sinistral yes splitting hairs, but only to demonstrate that there are very few absolutes in the firearms acts and oh so many variables or exceptions.
That's true on tiny details, but please read my previous posts #21 and #27 again. So far I see no rebuttal on the substantive issue of 'good reason' that GS has to meet. To recap, his FAC authorises 'off-ticket' ammunition for a calibre of rifle he doesn't have. My query is whether the authorisation is legal for the purpose it has been given.

The question of fairness always bothers me when one FLD decides to play fast and loose with the licensing rules. These should be iron clad. I'll speak plainly, in my opinion Avon & Somerset are not bending but breaking the law under the Firearms Acts here. This isn't within their discretion. If licensing departments do read such threads on here, I think any court would strike this arrangement down as ultra vires.

The rest of us have only found out about it from an indiscreet post, but arbitrary licensing deals like these disadvantage all other FAC holders under FLD's which do follow the law. Section 3.(5) - Firearms Rules 1998 applies here, and points ultimately to the main Firearms Act 1968. Section 5A still refers to the defunct 'expanding ammunition & missiles' prohibition repealed en bloc by later legislation (I know) but the lawful 'authorised uses' for fireams & ammunition under the Home Office Conditions remain as they were.
5A does serve as a handy reminder of what these are. :)


 
My view.

1) I will only by and use factory ammo that is still sealed with the factory seal. I was once given a load of factory 7x57 ammo - it was second hand and had been lying at the back of the gunroom. One fox contained half a dozen 25-06 cartridges. I did check the boxes before leaving the shop and left those cartridges behind. Yes it was free, but did I know for certain what each cartridge actually contained? Nope.

2) I will use my own handloads in my rifles. Challenge is as you get more calibres with different powder requirements - **** up potential increases exponentially. Provided you use a powder that pretty much gives a caseful, it will be quite difficult ti go bang.

But if I dumped a caseful of fast powder - eg N130 or a pistol powder in my 7x65r which uses a sliw N160- it could get a bit interesting.

And you are in a hurry to quickly load up some more ammo cos you have just got a call to go stalking.

And be very careful about having ammo in your possession that you are not authorised to. I know of two different cases where stalkers have been taken to court by the police fir having ammo that is not on their certificate. Its involved confiscation of rifkes, revocation of certicates and lots of angst and legal fees.
 
Ok so for 20 yrs I’ve bought factory ammo from the gun shop
Where do I stand with my stalking buddy loading for me and me buying those rounds from him to cover his costs ?
secondly what if I buy factory rounds from someone else ie another mate who no longer shoots factory?
What is the correct way to do these transactions and it legally show I’ve used them so on ticket ✅
Cheers folk
He can’t sell you loaded rounds.

provided he has the calibre on his ticket he can load them for you if you buy him the components and he gives you the ammunition back free of charge.

He would need to write them on your certificate though. If he doesn’t have that calibre on his ticket and he loads then he is breaking the law.
 
My view.

1) I will only by and use factory ammo that is still sealed with the factory seal. I was once given a load of factory 7x57 ammo - it was second hand and had been lying at the back of the gunroom. One fox contained half a dozen 25-06 cartridges. I did check the boxes before leaving the shop and left those cartridges behind. Yes it was free, but did I know for certain what each cartridge actually contained? Nope.

2) I will use my own handloads in my rifles. Challenge is as you get more calibres with different powder requirements - **** up potential increases exponentially. Provided you use a powder that pretty much gives a caseful, it will be quite difficult ti go bang.

But if I dumped a caseful of fast powder - eg N130 or a pistol powder in my 7x65r which uses a sliw N160- it could get a bit interesting.

And you are in a hurry to quickly load up some more ammo cos you have just got a call to go stalking.

And be very careful about having ammo in your possession that you are not authorised to. I know of two different cases where stalkers have been taken to court by the police fir having ammo that is not on their certificate. Its involved confiscation of rifkes, revocation of certicates and lots of angst and legal fees.
Simple answer, keep a good stock of loaded ammo in for that last minute call and only have one powder on the bench at a time.

Also a good practice (which I still do) is to speak out loud the load you are loading prior to getting going, visually checking each component is correct as you say it and that the scale is set to right weight as you say that.

I load 9 or 10 rounds from fast pistol rounds up to slower magnum rifle powders so avoiding mix ups is a good idea.
 
Since primers are the only thing that you need to show your FAC to buy, it stands to reason that once the primer is fitted into the case, then the case/primer assembly becomes subject to the Firearms Act.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that if you fit primers into more cases than you are allowed complete cartridges, then you would be exceeding your ammo allowance.

Cheers

Bruce
It’s not a loaded round until it’s a loaded round!
 
I don't remember saying my force is avon and somerset
Odd you should clam up now, but this is on your avatar and clear from your posts.
Sometimes the business and personal get mixed up too. Can't help noticing that either.:)




 
Give a man a fish he eats for a day , teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime! If they can't be bothered to learn I can't be bothered to teach but if they can be bothered all tge time in the world , it's returning the favour that was done for me ( some of those folks are now not present)
Newsflash .... factory ammo goes wrong but the companies have insurance for that eventuality
 
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