Pellet Pinger
Well-Known Member
It’s irrelevant whether i trust it or not as im not representing the shooting community.
None of the above answers my simple question.
An huge own goal by the Shooting Organizations - the lead farce
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None of the above answers my simple question.
I'm an old man now, so any changes in legislation won't have much effect on me. However, I've been shooting for over seventy years as a pest controller and keeper and can honestly say I've only ever come across probably half a dozen dead birds, or signs of them in all that time. (excluding shoot days of course!) I'm out shooting on average five days a week at least and live near a large tidal river and am only a quarter of a mile from the coast. You would think that with all these bird deaths I am in an area where I would have seen signs of far more than half a dozen in my lifetime (and I know for a fact a couple of those had collided with overhead wires)!
Are these scientists country people who walk the fields daily? if not where and when do they see and collect all these dead specimens, I'm genuinely interested to know.
Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
It would be nice to be "a fly on the wall" in a BASC meeting when they discuss such things, even more so if there are "Expert Scientists" present.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I'd rather slash my wrists!
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Of course it is relevant and if you are genuinely interested in this topic how about having a chat with me this week? Drifting into BASC bashing territory is unnecessary.
Pellet Pinger
Well-Known Member
Forget it, you you are going to label pertinent questions asking how the science you are using is at odds with others experience of being in the outdoors daily as BASC bashing then its pointless, but thanks for the offer.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
The scientists did not collect them, it is based on samples and population estimates from that. The 50-100,000 estimate comes from a 2015 Oxford lead symposium "that in the UK in the order of 50,000-100,000 wildfowl (c. 1.5-3.0% of the wintering population) are likely to die each winter (i.e. during the shooting season) as a direct result of lead poisoning. For migratory swans, this represents a quarter of all recorded deaths. Wildfowl that die outside of the shooting season will be additional, as will those that die of causes exacerbated by lead poisoning. Several hundred thousand wildfowl a year may suffer welfare effects".
Oxford Lead Symposium
oxfordleadsymposium.info
Tens of millions of birds die every year from myriad causes including old age. Where did they all go? We don't often come across most of them as per your long experience.
A 2003 study by the Mammal Society estimated that UK cats kill 275 million prey animals annually, including 55 million birds. How did they arrive at the figure? Did someone count every one or was it an estimate? Should we trust this science?
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
What is there to lose by having a chat as opposed to spending your time on forum comment ping pong? How about 15 mins of your time this week?
Pellet Pinger
Well-Known Member
No thanks, i’ll respectfully refer you to my previous post.
No. No. No. No. No.
“A huge own goal” not “An huge” ffs.
Words that have a silent 'h' begin with a vowel sound, so they use 'an'. Words where the 'h' sound is pronounced, such as hat, hotel, or huge, use 'a'. Words where the 'h' is silent, such as honour, hour, or honest, use 'an'.
“A huge own goal” not “An huge” ffs.
Words that have a silent 'h' begin with a vowel sound, so they use 'an'. Words where the 'h' sound is pronounced, such as hat, hotel, or huge, use 'a'. Words where the 'h' is silent, such as honour, hour, or honest, use 'an'.
I described the voluntary move away from lead as a farce as it hasn't been delivered.
That weakens the concept of the shooting organisations delivering voluntary compliance with other initiatives such as delaying the start of woodcock shooting until the migratory birds arrive.
We are now in the hands of our legislators for the future or not of leadshot.
Conor thanks for your time on this thread, we have alas moved past detailing the science, the HSE have reported to Government. The battle now is to avoid misson creep as the legislation is drafted.
That weakens the concept of the shooting organisations delivering voluntary compliance with other initiatives such as delaying the start of woodcock shooting until the migratory birds arrive.
We are now in the hands of our legislators for the future or not of leadshot.
Conor thanks for your time on this thread, we have alas moved past detailing the science, the HSE have reported to Government. The battle now is to avoid misson creep as the legislation is drafted.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
I think discussion around the science is still relevant in helping to grow awareness that lead shot ingestion has an evidenced impact on many bird species in the UK and around the world, that this evidence spans 135 years, and is not a conspiracy against shooting. Those discussions have been happening across the shooting community for some five years, and continue, including via contact with shooting organisations on the phone, by email, at shows and events, and on social media, such as here on SD.
Yes, we await what news of what Defra will agree with the devolved governments in Wales and Scotland as regards their collective response to the HSE recommendations on lead shot and other lead ammunition uses.
What is involved is outlined here:
HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained
Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.
basc.org.uk
On lead shot, if the HSE recommendations are adopted then there will be a restriction on the sale and use of lead shotgun ammunition with a transition timeline of five years. However, that could be shorter if Defra has been influenced by lobbying by a number of organisations seeking an 18-month transition timeline (there have been 14,000 emails sent to the Secretary of State). Also, Defra will be mindful of what is happening in the EU as the EC has recently published draft regulations and there will be responses to that from the representative European hunting and target shooting organisations as the proposals undergo scrutiny via the various complex EP legislative processes. And on top of that the devolved governments for Wales, Scotland and NI have the powers to introduce their own laws on restricting lead shot, as they did from circa 1999-2009 in relation to wetlands/wildfowl, each doing it differently.
There was a lot less large scale game shooting 150 years ago, even 100 years ago. Yes days could be massive, but many estates only shot a handful of times a season. Now many estates shoot a handful off days in a week.
jimmer.13
Well-Known Member
I think it would be balance out evenly in comparison with today.
With exemption for clay grounds obviously.
I think what this thread demonstrates quite clearly is that what has damaged the credibility of certain shooting organisations is the continual defence of restrictions on lead shot use and their justification by the continual reference to the incidence of lead shot ingestion in inland birds with incidentally absolutely no direct evidence of any population impact on any non wetland bird species.The fact that no lead poisoned birds are found does not automatically mean that nature has cleared away any evidence it may quite simply have never existed, who can prove otherwise ?
Is it too much to expect that Shooting organisations defend shooting ? The statement that “there is no lead ban it’s all voluntary”wears a bit thin when legislation is expected that will impact on the ability to use lead shot at clay pigeons. Of course should legislation come into effect this lack of defence on our behalf will be glossed over. As far as I am concerned the damage that. has been done is irreparable and the reputation of the guilty parties has suffered massively as a consequence.
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
Tell me Conor, in your opinion, do you believe there is ANY conspiracy against shooting (in any form) ?
Because I would beg to differ.
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