Any one vat registered for their stalking business?

[75]

I'm pretty convinced this is a non-starter, but thought I'd ask the question anyway... Basically all prompted by an upcoming quad purchase (used) where I'm going to have to pay VAT. It got me wondering whether I could register a business and recover the vat? I appreciate there are costs associated with setting up a business and I'd need to submit annual returns but they'd be very simple.

I'm already a registered food business but no business bank account and not registered with companies house. I only sell a handful of carcasses a year so my costs (diesel mainly!) will far outweigh any income from venison / game sales. I'm not looking to put any historical costs (rifles or ammunition I already own through the business, but looking at the possibility of the quad and other costs solely related to stalking going forward.

The other question is how would I get capital into the company to start with? Can I just move, say, £5k from my personal account as an investment to get going or is it more complex than that?

I have got an accountant I've used in the past and will speak to him if there's any mileage in this, but he's never dealt with this type of thing as far as I'm aware... I thought there would be some SD members who'd have some specific knowledge of this stuff.

 

[mealiejimmy]

How would your stalking clients react to you charging them 20% more than you do now?
If you are registered for VAT, that's what you would have to do.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Tim.243]

I'm pretty convinced this is a non-starter, but thought I'd ask the question anyway... Basically all prompted by an upcoming quad purchase (used) where I'm going to have to pay VAT. It got me wondering whether I could register a business and recover the vat? I appreciate there are costs associated with setting up a business and I'd need to submit annual returns but they'd be very simple.

I'm already a registered food business but no business bank account and not registered with companies house. I only sell a handful of carcasses a year so my costs (diesel mainly!) will far outweigh any income from venison / game sales. I'm not looking to put any historical costs (rifles or ammunition I already own through the business, but looking at the possibility of the quad and other costs solely related to stalking going forward.

The other question is how would I get capital into the company to start with? Can I just move, say, £5k from my personal account as an investment to get going or is it more complex than that?

I have got an accountant I've used in the past and will speak to him if there's any mileage in this, but he's never dealt with this type of thing as far as I'm aware... I thought there would be some SD members who'd have some specific knowledge of this stuff.

Years ago when the vat threshold went up (90's) I had been pestering my account abt deregistering as my business partner had left. It went up and I was on the phone before 9am it got to 9 and Josh answered the phone saying Tim I have sent the forms off lol

 

[VSS]

My business is VAT registered, and that includes for all deer / stalking / venison related stuff.
There is no VAT on carcasses / venison sold, but you can reclaim VAT on production costs (ammo, diesel etc).
Sporting leases may sometimes have VAT on them, so that could be reclaimed too.

How would your stalking clients react to you charging them 20% more than you do now?
If you are registered for VAT, that's what you would have to do.

Cheers

Bruce

That depends on how you break down your charges. For example, on the rare occasions I take a client out, they pay VAT on the basic outing fee (my time), but not on the shot fee because client keeps the carcass. So that's £75 + VAT for the outing and £75 with no VAT for the shot.

 

[Miki]

You can start a company, register it with Companies House etc for less than £100.
If you want to 'loan' the company £5K this is entered onto your accounts as a Directors Loan, which you can take back at any time (as long as in doing so you do not bankrupt the company) without paying tax.
You can 'voluntarily register' yourself for VAT or wait until your turnover reaches £85K per annum.

There are some exemptions ... treating the shoot income as exempt from VAT by setting up a sports club.... but it gets complicated.
VAT registration is a good thing IMO.
You can only claim back or charge VAT after you have been registered.

 

[Tim.243]

How would your stalking clients react to you charging them 20% more than you do now?
If you are registered for VAT, that's what you would have to do.

Cheers

Bruce

Big Stalking outfitters will have vat so what do their customers do?

 

[75]

Thanks folks - sounds like potential then. Worth a chat with my accountant.

I guess I'm looking at it from the point of view that my outgoings will probably always exceed my income so I should be better off registered for VAT. As VSS says, no VAT on butchered or complete carcasses so shouldn't be any cost to add to customers.

 

[75]

How would your stalking clients react to you charging them 20% more than you do now?
If you are registered for VAT, that's what you would have to do.

Cheers

Bruce

I don't take anyone out - just me stalking but I do sell carcasses / butchered cuts.

 

[Thomas Gordon]

Personally from your situation described not worth the hassle, a second hand quad could only have a 1-1.5k max VAT? A lot of paperwork etc for that

 

[75]

Personally from your situation described not worth the hassle, a second hand quad could only have a 1-1.5k max VAT? A lot of paperwork etc for that

Is it though? Genuine question... Looks like I can do everything online and it'll take about an hour (companies house, business bank account, voluntarily register for VAT). Got to be worth it for a grand?

Then going forward I can recover VAT on fuel for stalking and any other costs. My annual accounts will be very simple - odd ammunition purchase, mileage, occasional purchase like quad and a handful of carcasses. Simple spreadsheet to track.

Maybe I'm missing something but I already do an annual PAYE tax return and that's simple enough.

 

[bowji john]

Limited company requires chartered accountants to sign off end of year returns I believe

My company was VAT registered, then deregistered as turn over dropped. Now I’m having to re register

Most of my clients are registered for VAT but I’ll have to take a hit on private individuals coming shooting or doing bushcraft courses or stag groups

 

[Thomas Gordon]

Is it though? Genuine question... Looks like I can do everything online and it'll take about an hour (companies house, business bank account, voluntarily register for VAT). Got to be worth it for a grand?

Then going forward I can recover VAT on fuel for stalking and any other costs. My annual accounts will be very simple - odd ammunition purchase, mileage, occasional purchase like quad and a handful of carcasses. Simple spreadsheet to track.

Maybe I'm missing something but I already do an annual PAYE tax return and that's simple enough.

I was advised by my accountant that it wasn’t worth while, maybe a lazy accountant. Rather than asking on here probs best speaking to your accountant and see what they advise?

 

[Bowland blades]

Dont be silly ! the cost of charging vat , accounting costs will hit you harder . They will be all over you if your not generating income and you wont get to claim such a high amount of vat in one hit unless you have a good turnover at the get go " its not that kind os asset " , you will depreciate it.
once you are into paying vat on income you realize why its better to not register until you have to and Hell i am married to a Charterd accountant , so my fees are none existent for the admin ( i still de- registered asap as i am getting too old to do the big blacksmithing jobs and thats a drop in gross turnover )
Honestly you should only VAT reg once you have to , oh you have to sell said quad with vat on it and anything else

 

[Miki]

Is it though? Genuine question... Looks like I can do everything online and it'll take about an hour (companies house, business bank account, voluntarily register for VAT). Got to be worth it for a grand?

Then going forward I can recover VAT on fuel for stalking and any other costs. My annual accounts will be very simple - odd ammunition purchase, mileage, occasional purchase like quad and a handful of carcasses. Simple spreadsheet to track.

Maybe I'm missing something but I already do an annual PAYE tax return and that's simple enough.

If you are organised with your paperwork and understand spreadsheets etc then it is likely that your input tax will always result in a claim, certainly in the beginning as you start the business off. If you get to the point where you are paying tax and VAT then you are making a profit, which is never a bad thing. The more people that do that (in Scotland) the better.
It will likely (unless your business grows substatially) not be worth it though.

 

[VSS]

It really isn't difficult. I voluntarily registered for VAT 25 years ago, because what I sell is mostly zero rated, and a lot of my input costs have VAT on them, so I make a net gain. My turnover has never been anywhere near the threshold for compulsory registration.
I do all my own book-keeping, VAT returns, tax returns etc using simple spreadsheets, and have never used an accountant for anything, ever.
The only downside is that it does expose your business to an additional layer of scrutiny, but provided that you're not trying to fiddle anything then you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Bowland blades]

I think folks are missing the " soley and exclusively for work" bit if you aint charging folks vat you cant claim it "

 

[75]

They will be all over you if your not generating income and you wont get to claim such a high amount of vat in one hit unless you have a good turnover at the get go " its not that kind os asset " , you will depreciate it.

I guess that was the fundamental issue I was worried about. Minimal income but can I have a grand back from the tax man because I've bought a quad for stalking please?! If it was that easy then everyone would be doing it...

All very circumstance specific it seems though and some who make it work ok. I'll have a chat with my accountant.

I think folks are missing the " soley and exclusively for work" bit if you aint charging folks vat you cant claim it "

Yep, quad would be solely for work associated with the company - stalking and other local shooting (pigeons, rabbits etc - all of which I can and do sell, but not many and they don't generate much income).

The only product I supply is carcasses / meat which are zero rated so no VAT to charge but I would pay quite a bit of VAT on expenses incurred (fuel, packaging, quad bike etc) so theoretically I'd be able to get a VAT rebate each year. If that's how it works! Which would no doubt attract some interest from HMRC so in all likelihood not worth the hassle.

 

[VSS]

I think folks are missing the " soley and exclusively for work" bit if you aint charging folks vat you cant claim it "

There is no VAT to charge on carcasses or venison sales. They're zero rated.
But you can claim back VAT on all your costs of production, most of which are standard rated at 20%

 

[Bowland blades]

There is no VAT to charge on carcasses or venison sales. They're zero rated.
But you can claim back VAT on all your costs of production, most of which are standard rated at 20%

yes at the moment in time as we know now " thanks to Cameron and his tampon fight" some products dont carry the 20% but a budget can change that in a flash . Schools and colleges also don't charge vat in general. Very impressed you do your own i would be scared stiff without being with my Accountant wife . I slipped up way before she was out of university let alone her training contract and got landed with a big fat bill that took two years to pay off .
I dont sell venison though

 

[VSS]

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