Are you a Deer Stalker or a killer?

[Marty J]

As the objective of most stalks is to shoot deer then surely all successful stalkers are by definition deer killers?

 

[mudman]

What about the other extremely high tech piece of kit that some have employed indirectly for many years to take deer. The motor car, used as a mobile hide, drive the ground using whatever tracks and byways there are, look for deer, spot your deer, and either stop and take the shot either from within or outside the vehicle. Or to keep up the pretence of hunting, drive on a short distance, quietly park up, debus and stalk into the previously seen deer before taking the shot. I would think a heck of a lot of deer are shot like this.

 

[dom8328]

Marty J I am in total agreement, to stalk is surely to follow closely and watch, then when we pull the trigger, we kill. So surely we are both stalkers and killers. The kit we use has no point in the argument, technology moves on so why not use it to your advantage if it achieves clean humane kills, we owe it to our quarry to do this. If you don't want to use the kit that helps and want to stay in the dark ages then give up stalking/killing for the sake of the quarry.

 

[Woodsmoke]

I actually think MARCBO has a point, certainly as far as recreational deertalking is concerned. Professional deer culling, and target shooting are as far removed from recreational hunting as can possibly be, and in most cases the extra money and performance is warranted and needed.............

Deer fall over very well with my Abolts, Simmons and Hawke scopes at anywhere from 20 yards to 200-ish. These are ranges any reasonably competent UK shooter should be able to manage with any suitable kit, whether it's a £5000 penis extension topped with a £2000 S&B Mega-Penis, or a practical, well-used and understood £500 outfit. Every piece of my gear has been well thought-out, well-used, and I flatter myself I'm reasonably competent with it. I don't shoot targets (unless it's practice) so I have no need to find the limits of my rifles or myself, and I think anyone who wants to shoot a live animal at extended ranges needs his head examined as in my view it's neither ethical, nor practical.

I walk miles through crappy terrain, and then oftentimes miles back for no reward. If I do shoot a deer, I carry it myself, then butcher, process and deal with every part of it myself. I don't sell deer, so have no incentive to shoot more than I need. I study the deer on my permission and decide which to take, or to leave them all if circumstances dictate. Each and every shot I take leaves me with a clear conscience. I consider myself a recreational deerstalker

 

[deerstalker.308]

Yawn!!!! Why not bring bow hunting into the discussion...... At least that way it'll get closed quicker......

 

[MARCBO]

Yawn!!!! Why not bring bow hunting into the discussion...... At least that way it'll get closed quicker......

Is that a forum secret, you can get a forum closed by bringing up bow hunting?

SS

 

[bogtrotter]

I will start by saying I am a deer stalker, that's my job description what in the states you probably call a professional guide.

There are many differences between here and the states, most of the land in the UK is privatley owned, even Forestry Commission land which could be termed public is still not available for the general public to hunt on at least not as it is in the USA though they do lease land and also a certain amount of day let's.

Though deer have always been shot in the UK stalking as such is a a fairly new thing in lowland areas especially for species such as Roe , the stalking of which only became popular when service men returning from Germany
introduced what they had seen while stationed there.

Landowners soon realised they had a resource that was financially beneficial to them.
Highland Scotland is different in that open hill stalking has been going on for a 150 years and and as such has certain customs and traditions, the sport in Highland stalking is the stalk,trying to approach unobserved across
open country, though it ends with or hopefully ends with a successful shot the shot is or should be an anti climax as I say the sport is in the stalk, so certainly not deer killers.

However I need to put on my other hat, and say that at times I have done a fair bit of culling of deer for protection
of both crops and forestry so at times a deer killer, I would not term culling large amounts of deer inside a forestry fence as stalking but as a job of work that needs to be done.

I do agree that some people seem to go a bit over the top with equipment and as you say appear more akin to snipers than stalkers, all you need for stalking is a rifle that is accurate out to around 200 yards if you are not getting that close or closer , then you are not stalking you are shooting deer.

However there is no harm in someone having equipment that exceeds what is needed anything that improves accuracy and makes a clean kill more likely can't be bad .

So are we deer stalkers or deer killers in the UK, well it depends on the circumstances, some of us are both on occasion.

 

[MARCBO]

Well Put BogTrotter. I think there is truely a difference between the two and that a "Stalker" is a sportsman that adheres to spirit of fair chase. Equipping oneself with a bunch of gadgetry to overcome personal limitations (inability to get stable in this case) is not in that spirit.

SS

 

[NigelM]

Yawn!!!! Why not bring bow hunting into the discussion...... At least that way it'll get closed quicker......

Please don't give him ideas! Guess what the next thread is going to be.

 

[pitiliedon]

I see a lot a traffic here about high value guns with higher value scopes being shot off of some form of artifical rest, bipod etc. I propose that those using such are not stalkers but rather shooters. A friend of mine who is a professional forester there in the Uk described hiself as a deer killer, not a stalker. I think these folks with their "sniper" set-ups are also "Deer killers", not stalkers. We are no longer subsistance hunters and in my mind are not true sportsmen unless we are shooting off our elbows or at most using a leather sling. Any moron with hi-tech equipment can shoot deer fron long ranges but they are certainly not stalkers.

SS

I cant agree with your opinion and wonder what background ,life experience, make you draw such a conclusion, so different from mine.
I am and have been severally a, deer manager , a murderer, cull technician but primarily a traditional Highland stalker with all the crawling up burns, soakings, hunkering down waiting out white -outs, floundering in snow drifts and dragging for miles that that implies. My rifle is a work tool , just a hollowed out bar of steel , if I happen to like plastic over wood and this scope over that, what matter? it's the person behind the gun where the meat,heart and skill lies of stalking. On the open hill the advantage is still all with the deer a lot of different variables all have to be managed and go your way in order to get either yourself or a guest in a position to take a clean killing shot. I just don't buy into the sporting description it's not a game or just for fun , although there is no sin in enjoying the experience and relishing the skill and achievement.I have stalked in too close and had to withdraw to a better stand-off , not to be sporting, but being to close limits the time you have to settle and raises the chance of being spotted or heard. I have relented at hind culls in winter, when the deer just cant break away because of deep snow and just stand watching as you select your cull animals ,not because I'm sporting but because I pity such an impressive animal that's wholly in my power and in that moment and I have more in common with those hinds , soaked, cold and exhausted in the snow on the hill side than in the majority of the more urban population. And believe me when I say NOT any moron with high tech gear can hit a barn door from inside the barn never mind a red deer on the open hill.

 

[sh1kar]

I am both - I stalk to the best of my ability with the kit I have and then do the best I can to kill. Sometimes this means stalking in to 40 yards in close woodland and using a scope to figure out which particular bit of the deer I can see in the brush and if a lethal shot is on. Other times it might be a Chamois at 400 yards across a mountain valley and then wind up the scope and shoot off bipod with ballistic turret all set to ensure I don't wound.

In case no one else has made the same point it's called sportsmanship

Another analogy "The definition of a gentlemen re drinking is someone who reaches contentment before capacity" in the same way The definition of a stalker is someone who reaches contentment well before the ability to slay everything in sight Whatever the need, personal pleasure or a managers cull target

Probably the only exception is personal survival when out DG hunting, then I am KILLER KILLER KILLER

d

 

[highseat6.5]

As I asked earlier; Are you a stalker or a killer. If your only concern is to take meat I propose that you are just a deer killer and anything (technology or tactic-wise) goes. If you are a stalker, as a sportsman, not a subsistance hunter, you should not be relying on technology to substitute for your lack of knowledge or skills.

There is a group in the US that calls themselves "The One-Mile Deer Hunters". They set-up with benchrests, lasers etc. and actually fire test shots before engaging animals they locate in their "hunting area", a distance side hill. While certainly successful they are not true sportsman. There is little difference between using s benchrest and a bipod in my mind, just a step above basic shooting skill. I could care less how small of a group you can shoot from an artifical rest, it proves nothing. A real rifleman can hit what he is aiming at on unknown terrain at an unknown distance (within his limitations) with the first shot without a bunch of supporting technology.

SS

"The one mile deer hunters " ....Only in the USA .....Cant think they would get to many members this side of the pond .I think any stalker /killer is duty bound to use the best kit they can afford to do the best job they can weather recreational or professional .To take a shot on the basis its more sporting to shoot freehand rather than practical of sticks /bipod is madness .With a cull target to reach if the only shots I could take were free hand I would fail dismally .

 

[Essexsussex]

This looked an odd post to start with and probably looked a little aggressive, but I have really enjoyed the well thought out responses that have been pegged. A credit to everyone who has written them.

 

[willie_gunn]

Cor....go out stalking for a few hours and look what happens.

If I didn't know better I'd think MARCBO has touched a raw nerve.

Reading some of the answers I'm surprised we're not being encouraged to say a few words to Herne the Hunter when we pull the trigger!

There's no shortage of killers out there who lose interest once a deer is shot - get the gralloching over quick and move on to the next one. No interest in a deer if it can't be shot, no interest in bucks if they're not medal class, don't want to shoot does. As for long range shooting, I firmly believe it's our density of population that stops the "one mile deer hunters" in the UK, not the lack of desire.

 

[MARCBO]

I think there were a series of events that led me to start considering the difference between a stalker/hunter and a sniper. One of the first was the ever increasing technology on the hunt with more rifles looking closer the WA2000 than the HahnKippLaufbuchse. I have never heard someone say "There I was slipping true the trees with my trusty WA2000..." Sure it could be used for a hunt but neer for a real "stalk".

SS

 

[Essexsussex]

Is that funny looking thing a good rifle? Just don't feel I want to shoot that sort of thing, much like I don't want to shoot at targets all day. Might be more the difference between a shooter who sees a deer as a target, and a shooter who sees a deer as quarry?

 

[highseat6.5]

Cor....go out stalking for a few hours and look what happens.

If I didn't know better I'd think MARCBO has touched a raw nerve.

Reading some of the answers I'm surprised we're not being encouraged to say a few words to Herne the Hunter when we pull the trigger!

There's no shortage of killers out there who lose interest once a deer is shot - get the gralloching over quick and move on to the next one. No interest in a deer if it can't be shot, no interest in bucks if they're not medal class, don't want to shoot does. As for long range shooting, I firmly believe it's our density of population that stops the "one mile deer hunters" in the UK, not the lack of desire.

I must be lucky then WG because in forty years stalking I have never come across pure killers , on the contrary I've found most people ere on the side of caution rather than take any sort of risky shot . As for medal hunters its a non runner because most of our stalking is doe's or cull bucks so I cant comment .

 

[willie_gunn]

I think there were a series of events that led me to start considering the difference between a stalker/hunter and a sniper. One of the first was the ever increasing technology on the hunt with more rifles looking closer the WA2000 than the HahnKippLaufbuchse. I have never heard someone say "There I was slipping true the trees with my trusty WA2000..." Sure it could be used for a hunt but neer for a real "stalk".

SS

Yet I would guess the average distance at which most deer are shot in the UK is still well under 100 yards....

 

[willie_gunn]

I must be lucky then WG because in forty years stalking I have never come across pure killers , on the contrary I've found most people ere on the side of caution rather than take any sort of risky shot . As for medal hunters its a non runner because most of our stalking is doe's or cull bucks so I cant comment .

I truly wish I could say the same.

I never mentioned risky shots, though, just people whose interest in deer is simply killing them.

 

[hunta]

The difference between a deer stalker and a deer killer has everything to do with what's going on in the mind and nothing to do with the equipment used !