Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
Here here, well said, my thoughts exactly.
L2 stalks in a fricking deer park, what will be next.
If you want your L2 get out onto the hill or forest and earn it properly.
Aw fees
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- Start date
Here here, well said, my thoughts exactly.
L2 stalks in a fricking deer park, what will be next.
If you want your L2 get out onto the hill or forest and earn it properly.
jamross65
Well-Known Member
Had a guest out over the weekend, morning/evening Saturday and morning only Sunday.
Met at 6am Saturday. Parked car and waited for enough light to see any deer on walk into highseat for a couple of hours wait. Less than 5mins from leaving car and walking up forest track, see 2 sika stags and some hinds in the field below us. Hidden by tress between us and the deer. Easy walk along road, lay down and shoot down into field, or at least we would have done if some **** of a female from the nearby health spa hadn't decided on a 7am jog across the estate wearing a bright red t-shirt. Worse thing was from a distance she didn't look that nice in lycra, anyway. Sika in my opinion are the hardest to stalk. If she hadn't shown up that would have been one easy stag in the chiller. Done it before in the exact same spot several times because I know the ground. Wild deer, easiest stalk in the world. He ended up with a stag in the last 10mins of the Sunday morning after a very difficult stalk into about 40m on a small group of two stags and a few hinds, across windblow and beechmast to shoot through a small gap in the cover. So surely whether it's easy or hard, if it's a witnessed stalk you take what is on offer and show the correct procedure regardless...
1000 acre deer park with little undulating ground or features to assist and 100 pairs of eyes watching you?????
I don't even shoot in parks but can see the bigger picture that some parks at least can be every bit as challenging as some stalks on wild deer...
Met at 6am Saturday. Parked car and waited for enough light to see any deer on walk into highseat for a couple of hours wait. Less than 5mins from leaving car and walking up forest track, see 2 sika stags and some hinds in the field below us. Hidden by tress between us and the deer. Easy walk along road, lay down and shoot down into field, or at least we would have done if some **** of a female from the nearby health spa hadn't decided on a 7am jog across the estate wearing a bright red t-shirt. Worse thing was from a distance she didn't look that nice in lycra, anyway. Sika in my opinion are the hardest to stalk. If she hadn't shown up that would have been one easy stag in the chiller. Done it before in the exact same spot several times because I know the ground. Wild deer, easiest stalk in the world. He ended up with a stag in the last 10mins of the Sunday morning after a very difficult stalk into about 40m on a small group of two stags and a few hinds, across windblow and beechmast to shoot through a small gap in the cover. So surely whether it's easy or hard, if it's a witnessed stalk you take what is on offer and show the correct procedure regardless...
1000 acre deer park with little undulating ground or features to assist and 100 pairs of eyes watching you?????
I don't even shoot in parks but can see the bigger picture that some parks at least can be every bit as challenging as some stalks on wild deer...
sikamalc
Administrator
Whilst I am not trying to take away the fact that sometimes stalking on a deer park can be hard, and eventful, it dosnt take away from the fact that you know you are going to see the right deer eventually to be culled. They are there, they are not going to disappear.
On the other hand I think we have all had days in a wild situation where we have had an easy stalk, and in some cases a deer grassed within minutes. But that does not happen everyday, and you have to get lucky sometimes
Even with Sika this can happen, and I have taken beasts on a few occasions in a matter of minutes, but that's the right place right time syndrome 
Wild deer have to be lucky every time they come out to feed or move, we only have to be lucky once.
On the other hand I think we have all had days in a wild situation where we have had an easy stalk, and in some cases a deer grassed within minutes. But that does not happen everyday, and you have to get lucky sometimes
Even with Sika this can happen, and I have taken beasts on a few occasions in a matter of minutes, but that's the right place right time syndrome Wild deer have to be lucky every time they come out to feed or move, we only have to be lucky once.
There's a very easy way to summise what's being said here.
Would you value the DSC2 qualification if it were solely based on park deer as much as if it were based on both park and wild deer? If people are completely honest with themselves I think that question speaks volumes to be honest.
As for people claiming to see the 'bigger picture', should it not be obvious to all that sometimes, if you stalk long enough you'll get lucky with a wild deer which will be easier than a captive animal. But if you're truly seeing the bigger picture, is it not safe to say that a couple of examples are pointless and if the difficulty were to be averaged out over a thousand beasts each in multiple parks and multiple wild pieces of ground it would soon become very apparent which is the most difficult.
I've had a couple of challenging extractions through very boggy, very steep and difficult ground having to get a beast across a stream at the bottom of a two meter drop etc. You could not have even gotten a quad bike where I was, all very relevant to level 2. I can think of other similar examples. I've never seen a deer park with terrain like some places I've stalked in Perthshire and Ayrshire for starters. I'm not so sure a park deer would give the opportunity for the candidate to demonstrate some things relating to carcass extraction and hygiene some wild deer would.
Would you value the DSC2 qualification if it were solely based on park deer as much as if it were based on both park and wild deer? If people are completely honest with themselves I think that question speaks volumes to be honest.
As for people claiming to see the 'bigger picture', should it not be obvious to all that sometimes, if you stalk long enough you'll get lucky with a wild deer which will be easier than a captive animal. But if you're truly seeing the bigger picture, is it not safe to say that a couple of examples are pointless and if the difficulty were to be averaged out over a thousand beasts each in multiple parks and multiple wild pieces of ground it would soon become very apparent which is the most difficult.
I've had a couple of challenging extractions through very boggy, very steep and difficult ground having to get a beast across a stream at the bottom of a two meter drop etc. You could not have even gotten a quad bike where I was, all very relevant to level 2. I can think of other similar examples. I've never seen a deer park with terrain like some places I've stalked in Perthshire and Ayrshire for starters. I'm not so sure a park deer would give the opportunity for the candidate to demonstrate some things relating to carcass extraction and hygiene some wild deer would.
I've tried to show people 'the bigger picture' from the prospective of someone who has done exactly what you describe, shot several thousand deer in many different park and wild settings and I can still tell you with total honesty that neither is easier or harder than the other when averaged out, they simply present a different set of challenges. Not sure that I have anymore that I can add to the discussion if 20 years of real experience is not enough so I'll leave you to it.
I will concede that extraction of the larger species is almost always easier in a park but how many DSC2 candidates take full and sole responsibility for extraction anyway when undertaking an ICR involving large deer?
Tackleberry270
Well-Known Member
I've kept quiet so far (I think i may have opened this can of worms) as I'm reading some of the more constructive posts and thinking there is some credit to both sides. I've been active in a semi-pro basis with big DMG for the last 10years and I now work on an Estate with a Park just shy of 1000 acres - (although I am not responsible for keeping the deer on it). I don't have experience with wild reds and sika.
The main point I would like to make is that the candidate, if not on their own ground, has to be briefed on the essential safety points, cull limitations discussed, and then left to get on with it with no assistance. Under these circumstances if you do not know the layout of the deer park (big enough to qualify for arguments sake) or have not stalked it before then you can still mess it up with no chance of recovery (if you are not being helped). Once the deer are spooked you can end up chasing them round the park.
My own DSC2 was 3 roe bucks in a day on my own ground. The first - a youngster as I crept through woodland a 07.30 at a distance of 30m. The second we caught snoozing in the sun on a woodland border early afternoon, distance 20m. The third on last light feeding in a paddock. Distance 60m.
Do I feel it was any less 'earned' than Woodland sika or Reds on the hill over weeks or months of repeated attempts? Absolutely not. They were all stalked. The work was put in over years of learning the area and the deer on it. I knew full well that I was more than competent and I proved every necessary criteria in the portfolio.
Can you achieve all this in a Park. Possibly. But personally I feel it is a qualification that represents your achievement in proving competence in stalking wild deer and all that goes with it. No matter how you look at it, captive deer are still captive deer. - not that my opinion matters!!
The main point I would like to make is that the candidate, if not on their own ground, has to be briefed on the essential safety points, cull limitations discussed, and then left to get on with it with no assistance. Under these circumstances if you do not know the layout of the deer park (big enough to qualify for arguments sake) or have not stalked it before then you can still mess it up with no chance of recovery (if you are not being helped). Once the deer are spooked you can end up chasing them round the park.
My own DSC2 was 3 roe bucks in a day on my own ground. The first - a youngster as I crept through woodland a 07.30 at a distance of 30m. The second we caught snoozing in the sun on a woodland border early afternoon, distance 20m. The third on last light feeding in a paddock. Distance 60m.
Do I feel it was any less 'earned' than Woodland sika or Reds on the hill over weeks or months of repeated attempts? Absolutely not. They were all stalked. The work was put in over years of learning the area and the deer on it. I knew full well that I was more than competent and I proved every necessary criteria in the portfolio.
Can you achieve all this in a Park. Possibly. But personally I feel it is a qualification that represents your achievement in proving competence in stalking wild deer and all that goes with it. No matter how you look at it, captive deer are still captive deer. - not that my opinion matters!!
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more with this sentence, but ultimately i suppose its down to the individual which way he wants to go, perhaps the rules will change in the future to close what i consider to be a loop hole in the DMQ.
Hopefully you will get a Devon red soon!
Cheers
Richard
thibaud
Well-Known Member
As someone looking to go through DSC2, I have followed this and other threads with interest. I have also had a chance to hear Glyn's point about park culling at length on a course I happened to be with on alongside him and others. The issue seems to centre around the 'fair chase' element rather than the deer itself being any different. I am sure some parks are better suited to that than others and DMQ should be able to differentiate. One point that is often forgotten is that wild deer stalking when you don't have your own ground can get rather expensive. I have just done 5 successive stalks and only got an opportunity on one. Thankfully I got a nice roe buck, my first, and that's just how it goes. However, I am doing DSC2 as much for professional than personal reasons so money does come into it.
As long as the fair chase element is there, and many parks have the variety of habitats and landscape to allow that, I think that it has a place. You also have to bear in mind that when stalking wild deer, your success can often depends on elements entirely out of your control: the muppet that let his or her dog run free where they shoudn't, mountain bikes tearing through the ground...etc, particularly in the South East where I am based. My feeling is that I'll happily do either but clearly there are pros to the Park situation that do not necessarily devalue the qualification. There are also real challenges.
Just my opinion, at the end of the day. If I am confident in my performance, it won't really matter to me whether people will look at it differently because I may have achieved it in a park or in the wild.
Perhaps a way forward would be for DMQ to either outlaw park deer for DSC2 or list approved parks where it can take place. Ultimately, it is up to them to decide whether it is a loophole or an appropriate alternative.
Anyway...the thread seems to have been derailed at this point...
Erik Hamburger
Well-Known Member
Anything from diesel only, to £40 per outing and you can keep the carcass; to £80 per outing excluding the carcass.
Jut be aware that on average DSC2 candidates require fifteen stalks to complete their three Individual Cull Records.
So shop around to find someone who is not ambiguous with their quote and who has access to good land with lots of deer.
Personally I found the cheapest route to complete the DSC2 was to fly to Scotland, stay in a B&B, booked myself in with a Professional Hunter with access to great land with lots of Roe on it, so I increased my changes to complete the three ICR's in the shortest possible time. And it worked.
Jut be aware that on average DSC2 candidates require fifteen stalks to complete their three Individual Cull Records.
So shop around to find someone who is not ambiguous with their quote and who has access to good land with lots of deer.
Personally I found the cheapest route to complete the DSC2 was to fly to Scotland, stay in a B&B, booked myself in with a Professional Hunter with access to great land with lots of Roe on it, so I increased my changes to complete the three ICR's in the shortest possible time. And it worked.
Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
Can you please tell me the origin of that statistic please? I can't see how anyone would know this? I have never been asked to supply any data as to success rates as an AW, and I don't know of any other AW's that have. My candidate success rates are certainly a lot better that a 1:5 ratio!
MS
Erik Hamburger
Well-Known Member
Dear Monkey Spanker, I am pleased for you that YOUR success rates are so much higher than the average - good for you!
However, the use of the word 'average' means just that: Average. That means that some people do a lot better, and some people do a lot worse.
I have the information from a DMQ verifier, verbally, so I have absolutely no statistics or evidence to back up my claim, apart from the word from a man I trust.
As far as myself is concerned, I required 16 (sixteen) stalks to complete my three IRC's, with the horrendous weather conditions in the Winter of 2012/2013 being the main reason of my lack of success: Not finding any deer, not finding a safe shooting position, or not finding deer of the correct sex at the time, time after time after time.
I hope you appreciate my post as actually being a positive one, one that promotes profs. like you, as I recommend any DSC2 candidate to book a full day with a PH/AW with good ground as I believe it works out cheaper than lots of 3-hour stalks with a 'diesel and a beer only' AW on ground that doesn't hold any deer.
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Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
That's exactly my point mate! I don't believe that there is any way that a DMQ verifier (or anyone else for that matter) could have any idea what the average is, as the only stalks recorded are the successful ones! There is currently no requirement to record anything else, so I can't see how the information can be anything other than an educated guess, or a reflection of his own statistics which are clearly not too good!?
MS
Erik Hamburger
Well-Known Member
That's exactly my point mate! I don't believe that there is any way that a DMQ verifier (or anyone else for that matter) could have any idea what the average is, as the only stalks recorded are the successful ones! There is currently no requirement to record anything else, so I can't see how the information can be anything other than an educated guess, or a reflection of his own statistics which are clearly not too good!?
MS
I think all PH's/AW's have a commercial interest in doing business, and getting new clients to sign up to AW stalks.
It is clearly not in their interest to put potential candidates off by telling them the possible downside.
My remark was directed at those who are considering doing their DSC2 - so they are fully informed that there are excellent, very successful Guides out their with a very high success rate (such as you, MonkeySpanker); and that there are also many, many stories of people never completing their three ICR's as they run out of time, run out of steam, and go way over budget.
baguio
Well-Known Member
Well here is a previous thread on avaerages http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co....eted-ICR-s-for-the-DSC2/page10?highlight=dsc2
I don't see a great deal of evidence that it would take 15 stalks? Mine certainly didn't! I took 4 stalks and the very next one out with another AW would have counted too! Remember, to get an average of 15 means that a lot of people would have to take a lot more than 15 to make up for the lucky ones amongst us who only took 3 or 4! By my maths that would result in someone taking 87 stalks to get the average up to 15 again after someone only took 3 IE 87+3 =90/6ICR's = 15average. That or a huge amount of people taking more than 15 to make up for each one who only took 3 or 4!
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Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
baguio
Well-Known Member
Can't say that I did MS (I was supposed to be working). However despite this thread which suggests about 7 or 8 would be a good average we still get this fictitious (average of 15 stalks) statement keep coming up with nothing to back it up at all. This sort of statement does nothing but put potential and quite capable applicants off doing their Level 2 
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87.6% of statistics are made up.
We all have bad days but if a stalker who considers himself to be at DSC2 standard is 'averaging' one successful stalk out of five then something is wrong somewhere.
I agree that stories like these are one of the things that put people off DSC2 which is a shame. You should enjoy the process and take a pride in it.
We all have bad days but if a stalker who considers himself to be at DSC2 standard is 'averaging' one successful stalk out of five then something is wrong somewhere.
I agree that stories like these are one of the things that put people off DSC2 which is a shame. You should enjoy the process and take a pride in it.
Tackleberry270
Well-Known Member
I disagree. There is so much that a successful stalk depends on which can vary depending on where you are, what you are stalking, local disturbance from public, other wildlife, weather. And thats before you start on your own skill and a bit of luck on the day. I don't think anyone can quote statistics or make any sweeping statements of any kind. .... and I think you will find it is only 70% of statistics that are made up.
Wingers243
Well-Known Member
Depends on your definition of success. Too many factors to list but I have been through plenty of periods of at least 5 blank stalks, not necessarily because I didn't have the opportunity to pull the trigger (deer in season, in range and safe) but because I didn't want to shoot the animals that presented. To me, that is a successful stalk and it can of course be recorded as such in the portfolio with the cull record to do separately. If you are working to strict principles on a historically very well managed (and probably large) estate without too many outside influences, especially towards the end of the buck season for example you could easily go for that long. Then luck comes into the equation!
If you are going more stalks than that for your level 2 without having an opportunity to cull what is probably wrong is you haven't chosen your time or place very well. Of course you might be unlucky or not good enough but if that's the case your AW should be telling you not blindly slogging away at it.
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