Ballistic vs Expanding ammo- POLL

Ballistic or Expanding ammo ?

  • Ballistic- majority head shots

    Votes: 5 10.2%
  • Ballistic- majority chest shots

    Votes: 17 34.7%
  • Expanding- majority head shots

    Votes: 5 10.2%
  • Expanding- majority chest shots

    Votes: 37 75.5%

  • Total voters
    49
I think that the prohibition on shooting people with expanding bullets only applies to war. In those other situations where people are shooting one another, I understand that they are entitled, if not indeed encouraged (from a public-safety perspective), to use expanding ammunition for the task. Obviously, shooting people with anything is quite ill-mannered and there is a more general prohibition against it in most places...
 
I think that the prohibition on shooting people with expanding bullets only applies to war. In those other situations where people are shooting one another, I understand that they are entitled, if not indeed encouraged (from a public-safety perspective), to use expanding ammunition for the task. Obviously, shooting people with anything is quite ill-mannered and there is a more general prohibition against it in most places...
Glad that’s cleared up 👍🤪😳😂
 
I think that the prohibition on shooting people with expanding bullets only applies to war. In those other situations where people are shooting one another, I understand that they are entitled, if not indeed encouraged (from a public-safety perspective), to use expanding ammunition for the task. Obviously, shooting people with anything is quite ill-mannered and there is a more general prohibition against it in most places...

Correct, some conflicts are classified as policing actions rather than wars.
 
Thinking about it a bit more (and I’m very willing to be corrected), I think the main categories are more like:

1. Non-lead monolithic. Very hard, generally relatively low expansion, need higher velocity to expand, penetrate very well. Limited meat damage.

2. Bonded core lead. Hard. Often limited expansion, especially at low speed, but expand well at high speed or if hit bone. Penetrate well. Moderate to little meat damage, unless hit bone or at very short range.

3. Classic unbonded cup and core soft point. Quite soft. Usually expands well, except at very low speed or if misses bone in small bodied animals. Can have limited penetration at high speeds and/or hit bone, when can ‘explode’. Moderate to severe meat damage, depending on speed and whether bone hit on entry. Many of these have been recently 'tarted up' with the addition of a plastic tip, which is to improve accuracy rather than to do much to the terminal performance (things like Nosler Ballistic Tip fall into this category).

4. Modern long range/ very long range aggressively expanding. Designed to expand very fast and/or at very low speed. In calibres and bullet weights primarily designed for deer sized animals, these bullets are primarily designed to maximise accuracy and expansion at long range - so can be extremely aggressive at high speed/short range. Can penetrate well at very low speeds, but can also explode very dramatically at high speeds. Meat damage can be horrific at short range. Things like Hornady ELDM and ELDX fall into this category.

5. Varmint bullets. Usually very light-for-calibre to maximise speed. Designed to fragment/explode on impact with soft tissue. Primarily designed for use on small to very small bodied pest animals where the aim is to kill immediately, with no need to recover meat. Do not penetrate well at most speeds, though most will go through a roe deer, and many will go through a small hind if you miss bone. Meat damage can be spectacular, and render a small carcass unfit for consumption. These are the things that people probably mean when they talk about 'ballistic tips' and head shooting. Things like 110gr VMAX in .270 or 75gr VMAX in .243 fall in this category - though even here, at longer range or if downloaded to slower speeds, they behave more like the category above. Because they're often crazy fast, they were favoured by people doing a lot of culling because they reduced the need to worry about range estimation. I get the sense that they are slowly dropping out of favour as people use range finders more and dial in.
 
I would go even further at both ends of your scale Mungo.

-1. Steel core solids for deep penetration of heavy (usually African) dangerous game.
6. Truly fragmenting (frangible) bullets made of cintered metal or polymer for use as indoor training ammunition or special purpose ammunition in enclosed environments. These are mainly used by military and the police.
7. True explosive bullets. Long outlawed.
 
In my younger days I used help with a large cull of hinds - all head shot. We used high velocity 6mm wildcats with fast expanding bullets. Heads exploded so any slight inaccuracy resulted in dead deer.

But those bullets if put through the body made a mess.

Nowadays I shoot for myself. I want a bullet that will punch through the body vitals from any direction. I am happy to loose a bit of meat if needs be. If I ever take a head shot I have to be very careful with shot placement.
 
I would go even further at both ends of your scale Mungo.

-1. Steel core solids for deep penetration of heavy (usually African) dangerous game.
6. Truly fragmenting (frangible) bullets made of cintered metal or polymer for use as indoor training ammunition or special purpose ammunition in enclosed environments. These are mainly used by military and the police.
7. True explosive bullets. Long outlawed.

There are some in between as well, such as the Hornady .30 calibre 190gr Sub-X which is designed to give full expansion at very low velocities. The polymer ‘tip’ of which does contribute to the initiation of the expansion and isn’t there for ballistic performance.
 
There are some in between as well, such as the Hornady .30 calibre 190gr Sub-X which is designed to give full expansion at very low velocities. The polymer ‘tip’ of which does contribute to the initiation of the expansion and isn’t there for ballistic performance.

I don’t suppose you have any pictures of recovered rounds of these? Am I right in remembering that you have used them?
 
I don’t suppose you have any pictures of recovered rounds of these? Am I right in remembering that you have used them?

Yes I am using them but unfortunately none recovered - the things I’m shooting with them I wouldn’t normally delve around in. ;) Although I’ll make an effort to retrieve one if I get the opportunity in future. Come to think of it, I don’t believe I’ve yet seen them recovered over on the US based 300BLKTalk forum, where they’re used for hunting deer and hogs. Might be because the round and bullet are relatively new as I’ve seen examples from other manufacturers such as LeHigh and Makers before.
 
Just to stir the pot, I currently load Hunting Ballistic Tips, Varmint Ballistic Tips, Varmageddon Ballistic Tips, Sierra Varminter Hollow points and Amax with polymer tips. All will expand but only the Amax is not designed to expand so the fact that it does is just coincidental.
 
Just to stir the pot, I currently load Hunting Ballistic Tips, Varmint Ballistic Tips, Varmageddon Ballistic Tips, Sierra Varminter Hollow points and Amax with polymer tips. All will expand but only the Amax is not designed to expand so the fact that it does is just coincidental.

Are you sure about that? I know that discussions about AMAX can get quite heated, but it certainly behaves as if it were designed to expand...
 
Are you sure about that? I know that discussions about AMAX can get quite heated, but it certainly behaves as if it were designed to expand...

This was the reply received from Hornady themselves when someone asked the question:



“You hit the nail directly on the head! Although we do not recommend the Match bullets for hunting we know that many people use them for that with tremendous results. The issue is size of animal and shot placement, an animal shot through the ribs into the lungs will probably give instant response of dropping. However, if shot in the shoulder we know that these bullets may blow up on the outside of the animal and possibly be lost.

Even though the suggestion is indicated that these bullets are appropriate for hunting they are not engineered with any consistent degree of expansion. This is why we do not recommend them as a hunting bullet. Catch22, I suppose it is but I'm just giving you the real life truth that although they may work under perfect conditions we don't suggest you do.”
 
Amax do expand extremely well, a bit too well actually. The most rapidly expanding bullet I have used is the Speer BTSP which is positively explosive, it’s just a soft nosed lead round...
 
This was the reply received from Hornady themselves when someone asked the question:



“You hit the nail directly on the head! Although we do not recommend the Match bullets for hunting we know that many people use them for that with tremendous results. The issue is size of animal and shot placement, an animal shot through the ribs into the lungs will probably give instant response of dropping. However, if shot in the shoulder we know that these bullets may blow up on the outside of the animal and possibly be lost.

Even though the suggestion is indicated that these bullets are appropriate for hunting they are not engineered with any consistent degree of expansion. This is why we do not recommend them as a hunting bullet. Catch22, I suppose it is but I'm just giving you the real life truth that although they may work under perfect conditions we don't suggest you do.”

That's really interesting - thank you.

I wonder why they made a target bullet that 'expands'?

I use ELDMs (which are just a tarted up AMAX) in 6.5 Creedmoor. They are great on the roe, fallow and small sika I've shot with them. A touch messy if you hit bone close up, but otherwise work really well. However, my Creedmoor has a short barrel and gets very low speeds (2550 at the muzzle). Things might be a bit different if they were faster.
 
A-Max were listed as match bullets and medium game bullets in Hornady’s reloading manuals up until edition 8 I think. It was only dropped as a hunting bullet when they brought out the ELD-X.

As for “not designed to expand” above, well that is conjecture.

As for Hornady techs in the contact centre, you’ll get two or three different answers to the same question, depending who you get on the day...
 
There are some in between as well, such as the Hornady .30 calibre 190gr Sub-X which is designed to give full expansion at very low velocities. The polymer ‘tip’ of which does contribute to the initiation of the expansion and isn’t there for ballistic performance.
Don’t believe the hype and marketing blurb
The tip doesn’t do as much as a hollow point when it comes to opening the bullet up
 
As for “not designed to expand” above, well that is conjecture.
Slightly more than conjecture. The ridiculous legal situation that we had in the U.K. with regard to expanding bullets up until a few years ago raised questions as to whether A-Max were regarded as being designed to expand or not. The fact that they do and contrary to what the company said in their reloading data at the time is besides the point, it was a technical question about legality over here.
The National Rifle Association and the Home Office, as did many U.K. shooters, got Hornady to confirm that they had not been designed to expand, so problem solved. Thankfully a couple of years ago sanity returned and the whole nonsense is now of no real consequence and a thing of the past.
 
Don’t believe the hype and marketing blurb
The tip doesn’t do as much as a hollow point when it comes to opening the bullet up

Have you examined one?

It’s a totally different polymer insert compared to the regular tips on bullets for supersonic rounds. Standard hollow point rifle bullets will not expand reliably at subsonic velocities so, yes, the tip/insert on that particular bullet does contribute to the expansion.
 
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